PIA to lease a brand new Boeing 777-200ER

[F.K]

pia does indeed fill in its 747s on flights to london, newyork ,jeddah and riyadh,mandating the neeed lfor arge aircraft to carry the bulk of passengers during busy seasons. other airlines that have bought 777s did not replace older 747s,but the 747s were retired because they werent found economically viable with huge excesses in seats and because of being overage....airlines like saudia ,cx and i think singapore too use 744s to date as replacements of older 747 variants. 772s are used on routes where there is a moderate density of pax or where airlines enjoy special frequency concessions.....i see pia leasing a few 744s after 2011 when it in principal plans to ground its 6 747 fleet.

[B777240ER]

pia does indeed fill in its 747s on flights to london, newyork ,jeddah and riyadh,mandating the neeed lfor arge aircraft to carry the bulk of passengers during busy seasons

But with smaller aircraft PK can provide more choice to its customers.

Apart from LHR, none of the other airports are slot constrained.

Take for example Karachi to Riyadh. PK flying 2 weekly B743 if it uses a 300 seat aircraft it can provide a extra flight, having the same number of flights operated by its competitor.

I don't think B744 are the answer but B773A (the base version). We can't rule out that PK will go for B744. It all depends if the price is right.

[CoyBoy]

Air New Zealand replaced their 742 with 744, Royal Air Maroc did too, so did Varig replace their 743 with the type.

[PK777]

theres no concrere confirmation on the induction of an added 777 next year, ....its just a false buzz created as part of the lingering 777 hype....

Well the B777 that is being discussed here is arriving in 2007 not 2006...

We hav two Boeing 777-24LRs arriving next year. One is currently in refurnishment.

[Adnan Anwar]

pia does indeed fill in its 747s on flights to london, newyork ,jeddah and riyadh,mandating the neeed lfor arge aircraft to carry the bulk of passengers during busy seasons. other airlines that have bought 777s did not replace older 747s,but the 747s were retired because they werent found economically viable with huge excesses in seats and because of being overage....airlines like saudia ,cx and i think singapore too use 744s to date as replacements of older 747 variants. 772s are used on routes where there is a moderate density of pax or where airlines enjoy special frequency concessions.....i see pia leasing a few 744s after 2011 when it in principal plans to ground its 6 747 fleet.

YOu dodged my questions, you are quoting examples of airlines that can afford to keep aircrafts of many types. I am talking about commercially viable business sense, can you fill in 400 seater plane(747-400) 5 days week to its capacity 365 days a week. CAN YOU? Can you name one airline that is doing 365 days, 5 to 7 days week.

Saudia, Singapore and CX are wrong examples to quote for replacing 747-200 and 747-300 with 747-400. Singapore and CX ordered 747-400 to replace the 747-200 and 747-300 when 777 had not even arrived, and also leased some A340-300 for the time being. Singapore then returned the A340-300's once the 777 were ordered and arrived. Saudia ordered mix of 777 and 747-400 to replace the aging L1011's (plus Saudia is an exception because they got cash).

KLM replaced its 747-300 with 777-200ER, United replaced its 747-200/300's with 777 as launch customer. They did this for a reason thay can offer greater frequency(as coyboy stated earlier) to destinations where they cannot fill all seats easily.

THats one of the reason airlines asked for the 787 and A350, becasue thye want to offer greater frequency to a destinations witl passneger load of 250 per flight, hence making the flight commercialy viable.

[Adnan Anwar]

pia does indeed fill in its 747s on flights to london, newyork ,jeddah and riyadh,mandating the neeed lfor arge aircraft to carry the bulk of passengers during busy seasons

But with smaller aircraft PK can provide more choice to its customers.

Apart from LHR, none of the other airports are slot constrained.

Take for example Karachi to Riyadh. PK flying 2 weekly B743 if it uses a 300 seat aircraft it can provide a extra flight, having the same number of flights operated by its competitor.

I don't think B744 are the answer but B773A (the base version). We can't rule out that PK will go for B744. It all depends if the price is right.

PIA fills in their 747 in peak season, which all other airlines are able to do as well in a peak season.

I am talking about all year round, can any airline fill a 747-400 to full cap on every flight.

[behramjee]

I am talking about all year round, can any airline fill a 747-400 to full cap on every flight.

no airline can and thats why the B 773ER is an ideal B 743 replacement on a year round basis...but it shall be interesting to see how EK fills up even 70% of its A 380s on year round flights especially the proposed 2 class 649 seater A 380 to be used to BKK, India, JED, SIN, MNL etc

B 773ER for PIA in 2 class will seat 380 pax.

PIA 2 class B 743 seats 433 pax...however if PKs B 743s had the same J class features of its B 777s then the capacity of its B 743s would drop from 433 to 405 at least due to the bigger size and recline of the J class B 777 cabin.

Adnan Anwar...thumbs up to you

[Adnan Anwar]

I am talking about all year round, can any airline fill a 747-400 to full cap on every flight.

no airline can and thats why the B 773ER is an ideal B 743 replacement on a year round basis...but it shall be interesting to see how EK fills up even 70% of its A 380s on year round flights especially the proposed 2 class 649 seater A 380 to be used to BKK, India, JED, SIN, MNL etc

B 773ER for PIA in 2 class will seat 380 pax.

PIA 2 class B 743 seats 433 pax...however if PKs B 743s had the same J class features of its B 777s then the capacity of its B 743s would drop from 433 to 405 at least due to the bigger size and recline of the J class B 777 cabin.


YOu got my point, Behramjee (at least someone can understands what I am talking about)

LIke Behramjee, I am very curiuos how EK and others A380 will fill their A380 to full cap even in peak seasons.

Can all destinations be commercially viable all the time. HMMM!
Adnan Anwar...thumbs up to you

My prediction about A380 is that it could only be breakeven success for Airbus (maybe) but orders will not go beyond breakeven for airbus.

[Adnan Anwar]

I am talking about all year round, can any airline fill a 747-400 to full cap on every flight.

no airline can and thats why the B 773ER is an ideal B 743 replacement on a year round basis...but it shall be interesting to see how EK fills up even 70% of its A 380s on year round flights especially the proposed 2 class 649 seater A 380 to be used to BKK, India, JED, SIN, MNL etc

B 773ER for PIA in 2 class will seat 380 pax.

PIA 2 class B 743 seats 433 pax...however if PKs B 743s had the same J class features of its B 777s then the capacity of its B 743s would drop from 433 to 405 at least due to the bigger size and recline of the J class B 777 cabin.

Adnan Anwar...thumbs up to you

YOu got my point, Behramjee (at least someone can understands what I am talking about)

LIke Behramjee, I am very curiuos how EK and others A380 will fill their A380 to full cap even in peak seasons.

Can all destinations be commercially viable all the time. HMMM!

[BOEING777]

Can someone tell me why leasing this aircraft is better than buying it?

Availability for one thing:

Depending on the type of lease (wet/dry), may make more sense to lease 1st....

[Adnan Anwar]

Can someone tell me why leasing this aircraft is better than buying it?

Availability for one thing:

Depending on the type of lease (wet/dry), may make more sense to lease 1st....

As said earlier, depending on the type of lease and business model,

You can determine your needs lease versus owning.

One Plus point of lease is after lease term ends, you just handover the property to the leasing company. It is now their problem what they want to do with the plane.

If you own the plane for example, after the aircrafts usefull life, you have to run around trying to find a buyer for the plane or even a dismantler.

Plus well planned leases can help an airline keeps its fleet AGE newer as supposed to owning it, where airline has to depreciate the age of the plane in its books every year.

Plus (not sure) lease give you tax advantage as well at least in USA.

[smarties]

few airlines are already replacing their 744s with 773s. Airlines such BR, JL, KE, CX are using these planes alot more. An example is London...all these airlines previously used to use 744s, and these airlines which i have mentioned send 773s.

747s will eventually be used as cargo planes only. 777s are extremely economical they use almost half the fuel as a 777 and carry almost the same amount of pax. 773s can carry over 400 pax.

And yes, many airlines don't fill their 744s right up. I was with Singapore airlines a couple of weeks ago and they had a total of 57 pax on a 744 on a long haul which was pretty shocking.

BTW PIAs flight to/from MAN from Pakistan is full all year round.

[Adnan Anwar]

few airlines are already replacing their 744s with 773s. Airlines such BR, JL, KE, CX are using these planes alot more. An example is London...all these airlines previously used to use 744s, and these airlines which i have mentioned send 773s.

747s will eventually be used as cargo planes only. 777s are extremely economical they use almost half the fuel as a 777 and carry almost the same amount of pax. 773s can carry over 400 pax.

And yes, many airlines don't fill their 744s right up. I was with Singapore airlines a couple of weeks ago and they had a total of 57 pax on a 744 on a long haul which was pretty shocking.

BTW PIAs flight to/from MAN from Pakistan is full all year round.

As said earlier, all 744's were bought earlier to replace 742/743 which were commisioned before the arrival of 772ER's.

Now airlines prefer 777 to 744 becasue of its economics and don't forget 777 interior was designed by consulting frequent flying passengers. 777 has the best passenger flight reviews in terms cabin noise, comfort and overhead storage bin.

[Falcon598]

few airlines are already replacing their 744s with 773s. Airlines such BR, JL, KE, CX are using these planes alot more. An example is London...all these airlines previously used to use 744s, and these airlines which i have mentioned send 773s.

747s will eventually be used as cargo planes only. 777s are extremely economical they use almost half the fuel as a 777 and carry almost the same amount of pax. 773s can carry over 400 pax.

And yes, many airlines don't fill their 744s right up. I was with Singapore airlines a couple of weeks ago and they had a total of 57 pax on a 744 on a long haul which was pretty shocking.

BTW PIAs flight to/from MAN from Pakistan is full all year round.

As said earlier, all 744's were bought earlier to replace 742/743 which were commisioned before the arrival of 772ER's.

Now airlines prefer 777 to 744 becasue of its economics and don't forget 777 interior was designed by consulting frequent flying passengers. 777 has the best passenger flight reviews in terms cabin noise, comfort and overhead storage bin.

True. I also am having trouble seeing how EK will fill up the behemoth that is the A380. I also don't understand wy they ordered about 45 of them, what were they thinking?

[B777240ER]

I am talking about all year round, can any airline fill a 747-400 to full cap on every flight.

I was talking about giving consumers more choice with higher frequencies...not about filling planes.

Also about the MAN routes, PK should only fly B772 on the route as this will provide more frequencies. UK (apart from LHR/LGW) and US have opensky agreements with Pakistan so increasing frequency will not be of a problem.