PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

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baberblues
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by baberblues »

PCAA are just as incompetent and useless!


TAILWIND
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by TAILWIND »

Squawk_1200 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:02 pm In the still photos in the above post , is that a fire shower when engines came in contact with the hard surface ?.
yes, most likely these are sparks due to contact with rwy.

Zulfiqar
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Zulfiqar »

“The aircraft with retracted landing gear touched runway and scraped engines starting from the middle of 9000 feet long runway.”

Is 25L not around 10500-11000ft not 9000ft?
News media as always reports inaccurately/ unprofessionally.

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Abbas Ali
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

According to preliminary investigation report excerpts reported by news channels:

FDR and CVR data do not indicate any technical problem with PIA Airbus A320 (AP-BLD) involved in the accident.

Cockpit crew and ATC kept making mistakes.

ATC failed to stop cockpit crew from making high and fast approach.

Cockpit crew trying to control aircraft speed forgot to extend its landing gear.

First aircraft's left-side engine scraped runway and then right-side engine scraped runway.

The accident happened due to human error/negligence/carelessness.

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Hassan777
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Hassan777 »

Will the preliminary report be made public?

Squawk_1200
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Squawk_1200 »

Why are they bringing this over and over again in the preliminary investigation report that ATC failed to stop crew for making high and fast approach.
What radar center was suppose to do there , airplane was cleared for the approach . If crew ignored the instructions nothing ATC can do ,radar could only yell at pilots two or three times over the radio or when crew on the ground a call from radar Center to file a report and some action by CAA.

That day airplane was not even at the glideslope interception altitude , pilots had an approach plate in front of them. Though it was a pilots choice on a crystal clear day why pilots had to chase ILS display tape . If ATC didn’t contact them pilots could have call up radar Center and request a decent for approach. Radar instructs pilots to reduce speed only when there is spacing needed for airplane ahead or behind.

This can be argued unless things work differently in this part of the world.
Airplane is flown with brain not with stick and rudder.

oozeman64
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by oozeman64 »

Squawk_1200 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:58 am Why are they bringing this over and over again in the preliminary investigation report that ATC failed to stop crew for making high and fast approach.
What radar center was suppose to do there , airplane was cleared for the approach . If crew ignored the instructions nothing ATC can do ,radar could only yell at pilots two or three times over the radio or when crew on the ground a call from radar Center to file a report and some action by CAA.

That day airplane was not even at the glideslope interception altitude , pilots had an approach plate in front of them. Though it was a pilots choice on a crystal clear day why pilots had to chase ILS display tape . If ATC didn’t contact them pilots could have call up radar Center and request a decent for approach. Radar instructs pilots to reduce speed only when there is spacing needed for airplane ahead or behind.

This can be argued unless things work differently in this part of the world.
You're right, but when the ATC notices the pilots carelessness and bad decision to go through with tbe unstable approach, the ATC does still have the option to simply tell the pilot to go around again, even after the pilots claimed they were stable.

A problem in Pakistan actually is ego-tastic pilots who think of themselves as being better than the Air Traffic Controllers, which is completely absurd.
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TAILWIND
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by TAILWIND »

oozeman64 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:42 am
Squawk_1200 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:58 am Why are they bringing this over and over again in the preliminary investigation report that ATC failed to stop crew for making high and fast approach.
What radar center was suppose to do there , airplane was cleared for the approach . If crew ignored the instructions nothing ATC can do ,radar could only yell at pilots two or three times over the radio or when crew on the ground a call from radar Center to file a report and some action by CAA.
You're right, but when the ATC notices the pilots carelessness and bad decision to go through with tbe unstable approach, the ATC does still have the option to simply tell the pilot to go around again, even after the pilots claimed they were stable.

A problem in Pakistan actually is ego-tastic pilots who think of themselves as being better than the Air Traffic Controllers, which is completely absurd.
In the ATC recordings available to public, ATC said "NEGATIVE, turn 180", to which crew replied, " WE ARE established ILS 25L" to which ATC (gave up and) replied clear land. In my opinion that is max ATC could do under the circumstances. Ensuring Stable approach criteria is the responsibility of crew not the ATC, at best ATC can advise the crew which the reportedly did two or three time.
On factor though is important, i.e not handing over the flight to tower controller, if tower controller had token over the flight, he might have seen the acft grazing rwy and would have been able to take appropriate action advice to crew (post go aground). Apch controller on the other hand was most likely unaware what had happened and only became aware of abnormalities much later( detecting descent, left turn) and ultimately MAYDAY call by crew.

arshad.altaf
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by arshad.altaf »

The video may not be of any interest to the pilots. Aviation enthusiasts may find it informative.


oozeman64
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by oozeman64 »

TAILWIND wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 9:47 am
oozeman64 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:42 am
Squawk_1200 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:58 am Why are they bringing this over and over again in the preliminary investigation report that ATC failed to stop crew for making high and fast approach.
What radar center was suppose to do there , airplane was cleared for the approach . If crew ignored the instructions nothing ATC can do ,radar could only yell at pilots two or three times over the radio or when crew on the ground a call from radar Center to file a report and some action by CAA.
You're right, but when the ATC notices the pilots carelessness and bad decision to go through with tbe unstable approach, the ATC does still have the option to simply tell the pilot to go around again, even after the pilots claimed they were stable.

A problem in Pakistan actually is ego-tastic pilots who think of themselves as being better than the Air Traffic Controllers, which is completely absurd.
In the ATC recordings available to public, ATC said "NEGATIVE, turn 180", to which crew replied, " WE ARE established ILS 25L" to which ATC (gave up and) replied clear land. In my opinion that is max ATC could do under the circumstances. Ensuring Stable approach criteria is the responsibility of crew not the ATC, at best ATC can advise the crew which the reportedly did two or three time.
On factor though is important, i.e not handing over the flight to tower controller, if tower controller had token over the flight, he might have seen the acft grazing rwy and would have been able to take appropriate action advice to crew (post go aground). Apch controller on the other hand was most likely unaware what had happened and only became aware of abnormalities much later( detecting descent, left turn) and ultimately MAYDAY call by crew.
I agree with everything you wrote, but the fact that ATC 'gave up' with the incompetence is alarming, if the ATC notices a dangerous situation building, they couldve told the aircraft to go around again and not given it landing clearance.

However, I understand how this would be difficult considering the crew saying that they were established and comfortable, and ultimately it's up to the crew to "aviate"
// The air is far safer than the ground //

hassan khan
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by hassan khan »

Im hearing people say that Approach controller may have not seen the plane land and hence warn the pilots about the scraping. However, I clearly remember hearing the ATC ask the pilots if they are going to carry out a belly landing (during the 2nd approach). This suggests that infact the ATC may have been aware of the engine scraping during the 1st approach. Who told the ATC that??

Zulfiqar
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Zulfiqar »

hassan khan wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 11:41 am However, I clearly remember hearing the ATC ask the pilots if they are going to carry out a belly landing (during the 2nd approach). Who told the ATC that??
Correct, yet no emergency call/ action taken on the ground, or runway inspected.

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Abbas Ali
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

Hassan777 wrote: Tue Jun 23, 2020 1:22 am Will the preliminary report be made public?
Maybe after it's presented in the parliament on June 24.

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TAILWIND
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by TAILWIND »

Interview of Prof Amanullah (ex ATCO) on some TV channel. Makes sense

Hassan777
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Hassan777 »

It's high time for the government to outsource the major airports of Pakistan,as PCAA yet has proved again how incompetent they are and PK8303 should be the final push for the government to take these airports away from PCAA , the fact that the ATC controller stayed on duty till 7 PM and also 2 planes landed on the same runway where fragments could've been present is just baffling , when do we learn that SOPs are important? PCAA is beyond salvation and it's just better to take these airports away.