PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

[Hassan777]

how will French team fly back to France after investigate in Karachi?

The A330 neo will probably come and take them.

[riz]

As usual, they'll blame the dead pilots and move on with no changes. Then within 5 yrs another major fatal plane crash will happen in Pakistan and people will write it off as kismet. Pakistan needs change, top to bottom, in the civil aviation industry. Safarish needs to go away, need merit based positions, a good Safety Management System (SMS), a FOQA data system, and a LOSA system. If Pakistan has 500 flights per month, how many of those flights do CAA inspectors jumpseat in the flight deck for observation? How do you know how many approaches are unstable at PIA? Unless you have a QAR or FOQA system there is no way to track that. Even flight deck observations by the CAA would help track some data. Look at the safety systems in the United States, the safety record of aviation in the US, and learn from it. Pakistan should adopt best safety practices of countries like the US and UK.

But as usual, 2 dead pilots will be blamed for this crash without examining the entire system that put them in that position on that day. Change the system, you change the future for aviation safety. Blame 2 dead pilots, you don't change anything. They'll probably sacrifice a goat on the ramp at Lahore and go about their business, just as they did after the ATR crash.

Brilliant Observation. There is no Merit system in PIA and never will be, things will go on like that. There is no other Choice on domestic sector other than PIA and most domestic sectors are loss making for it. Govt. should seriously look into privatizing this organization after some immediate reforms.

[aur0ra]

AoA, Eid Mubarak.

I'm no aviator by all means but I do have quite a lot of experience with professional flight simulation over the past 6-7 years. Some of this information in my 'theory' was shared by an a320 pilot with around 17 years of experience via my uncle who's a recently retired Air Cmdr.

A chain of major SOP violations led to this tragic mishap causing the deaths of many innocent lives. Remember, this is just speculations and theories based off of preliminary information we have gathered. The ultimate conclusion/result will be given out by the investigation teams, who are more than qualified than any of us.

First of all, both pilots were fasting. This is a big violation as fasting leads to a low blood glucose level which in biology has negative effects on a person's concentration level and their reaction times. So it is recommended that you dont do any work that requires intense mental or physical exertion. So you either fly and don't fast, or you fast and don't fly.

Secondly, the pilots had ignored some warnings coming from Approach ATC (correct me if I'm wrong).

Moving on, and this is where the whole mishap could've been prevented even if it weren't in the pilots hands, the aircraft was on the glideslope for ILS 25L and was at 3500 ft at 5nm out, where normally you should be at 1500 ft. You can even hear the surprise or shock coming out of the tower when they tried to confirm this (this can also be a case where they didn't hear the pilots properly so they tried to confirm). After confirmation, ATC had cleared them for landing. If this was any other international airport, the tower would've cancelled their landing clearance and would've asked for them to come in for another approach. But in Pakistan unfortunately the culture is that the pilot is the ultimate authority.

Due to their extreme height at that point on the approach, the pilots had brought the throttle down to idle to compensate for the steep descent. Also, one of the survivors said that the cabin announcement was a normal one which further supports the claim that there was no technical problem or any malfunctions in the aircraft's systems. Ok now back to the main point. They had a steep descent towards the runway with thrust down to idle and they did come in full flaps and landing gear. Some people claim that the master warning alarm heard during the conversation between the ATC and pilots is the gear malfunctioning. It's not necessarily that. It could be anything. Maybe they were at a higher speed than the limits of the flaps as supported by their steep descent. We need to wait for further confirmation on this.

Now that they were at 1000 ft, they could've elected for a go around, or even at minimums. But they decided to continue with the approach at short final. When the pilots realised that they were too far ahead above the runway and that they could've overran the runway if they did touchdown, they decided to go around. The captain called for gear up and flaps up, with the throttle in TOGA. Problem here is, they came in with their thrust on idle, so the engine would've taken some time to spool up and to regain speed. The F/O had pulled all the flaps up without leaving behind some flaps or even bare slats for the go around. This led to the wings losing their lift accompanied with the low thrust due to the engine spool up time. At this time, the aircraft was more than half way down the runway and struck the runway around 3 times with it's engines.

Now that the aircraft got its thrust and regained some altitude, the engines were failing due to the impact they had gotten. The accessory gearboxes on the CFMs damage were badly damaged. This is supported by the photos taken by people on the other end of the runway at 07R. Also notice that there were no flaps or slats out in that photo which further supports my previous statement.

The pilots at this point failed to inform the tower about their failing engines in time, in which case the ATC could've given at a heading of around 070 directly parallel to the runway for a downwind.

As for the ATC saying belly landing as an option for the second approach, this implies that the Tower had seen the aircraft hitting the ground.
I heard from one of the ground crew members at Karachi that they found nuts and bolts and 6 inch pieces of cowling and panels, and that they had moved this debris to a separate location for investigation. The runway was barely, if not at all damaged. There were only marks left from the engines being dragged.

The rest we all know how it played out.

Remember these are just all speculations and theories based off of the evidences that we have gathered up till this point. I may very well be wrong and so can be anyone. The final decision is in the hands of the investigation team who are clearly more knowledgeable than us. Thankfully the results and the investigation will be transparent as per the orders of PM, and the fact that international authorities are involved.

I pray that inshallah there will be reforms in the entire system, being led by merit and not sifarish, and for all other corrupted and failing systems & institutions.

May Allah forgive the souls of everyone that has departed and left us, and may Allah guide us all and give us the ability and unity to prevent such incidents in the future so that countless innocent lives are not put in danger. Ameen.

[umar744]

I would like to ask you for YES or NO if happen two both engines failure after took off from end of 07 then can return immediately back U-turn to Runway 07 instead of 25L/25R? because AP-BLD long turn back from 07 to 25L not enough climb height? if I am pilot then I will straight away U-TURN back from 07 to 07 with high speed less flap until approach runway switch flap 15-20 landing safely. I never forgot about BOAC 707-420 engine fell off U-Turn back to Heathrow also CX A330 both engines failed safely landed successfully. sorry bad luck for Capt Sajjad Gul & F/O Azam unsuccessfully never mind.

[A310]

I would like to ask you for YES or NO if happen two both engines failure after took off from end of 07 then can return immediately back U-turn to Runway 07 instead of 25L/25R? because AP-BLD long turn back from 07 to 25L not enough climb height? if I am pilot then I will straight away U-TURN back from 07 to 07 with high speed less flap until approach runway switch flap 15-20 landing safely. I never forgot about BOAC 707-420 engine fell off U-Turn back to Heathrow also CX A330 both engines failed safely landed successfully. sorry bad luck for Capt Sajjad Gul & F/O Azam unsuccessfully never mind.

There can’t be a definite “YES” or a “NO”. Not unless an unbiased investigation is concluded. It depends on when the power started depleting and the altitude they were at that exact time. And in order to land on 07 it meant that had to make a steep right turn and then a steep left turn. They would’ve lost further altitude by doing that. I really hope the investigation is concluded quickly. The more we all speculate the more it will give a rise to “should have” scenarios.

[Abbas Ali]

According to news sources:

French investigation team has sought maintenance record of the ill-fated PIA A320 registration AP-BLD from the airline. Details to be submitted include:

Engines maintenance/cycles
Landing gear maintenance/service
Functioning of alarms system in the cockpit

Abbas

[mohammed younis]

AoA, Eid Mubarak.

I'm no aviator by all means but I do have quite a lot of experience with professional flight simulation over the past 6-7 years. Some of this information in my 'theory' was shared by an a320 pilot with around 17 years of experience via my uncle who's a recently retired Air Cmdr.

A chain of major SOP violations led to this tragic mishap causing the deaths of many innocent lives. Remember, this is just speculations and theories based off of preliminary information we have gathered. The ultimate conclusion/result will be given out by the investigation teams, who are more than qualified than any of us.

First of all, both pilots were fasting. This is a big violation as fasting leads to a low blood glucose level which in biology has negative effects on a person's concentration level and their reaction times. So it is recommended that you dont do any work that requires intense mental or physical exertion. So you either fly and don't fast, or you fast and don't fly.

Secondly, the pilots had ignored some warnings coming from Approach ATC (correct me if I'm wrong).

Moving on, and this is where the whole mishap could've been prevented even if it weren't in the pilots hands, the aircraft was on the glideslope for ILS 25L and was at 3500 ft at 5nm out, where normally you should be at 1500 ft. You can even hear the surprise or shock coming out of the tower when they tried to confirm this (this can also be a case where they didn't hear the pilots properly so they tried to confirm). After confirmation, ATC had cleared them for landing. If this was any other international airport, the tower would've cancelled their landing clearance and would've asked for them to come in for another approach. But in Pakistan unfortunately the culture is that the pilot is the ultimate authority.

Due to their extreme height at that point on the approach, the pilots had brought the throttle down to idle to compensate for the steep descent. Also, one of the survivors said that the cabin announcement was a normal one which further supports the claim that there was no technical problem or any malfunctions in the aircraft's systems. Ok now back to the main point. They had a steep descent towards the runway with thrust down to idle and they did come in full flaps and landing gear. Some people claim that the master warning alarm heard during the conversation between the ATC and pilots is the gear malfunctioning. It's not necessarily that. It could be anything. Maybe they were at a higher speed than the limits of the flaps as supported by their steep descent. We need to wait for further confirmation on this.

Now that they were at 1000 ft, they could've elected for a go around, or even at minimums. But they decided to continue with the approach at short final. When the pilots realised that they were too far ahead above the runway and that they could've overran the runway if they did touchdown, they decided to go around. The captain called for gear up and flaps up, with the throttle in TOGA. Problem here is, they came in with their thrust on idle, so the engine would've taken some time to spool up and to regain speed. The F/O had pulled all the flaps up without leaving behind some flaps or even bare slats for the go around. This led to the wings losing their lift accompanied with the low thrust due to the engine spool up time. At this time, the aircraft was more than half way down the runway and struck the runway around 3 times with it's engines.

Now that the aircraft got its thrust and regained some altitude, the engines were failing due to the impact they had gotten. The accessory gearboxes on the CFMs damage were badly damaged. This is supported by the photos taken by people on the other end of the runway at 07R. Also notice that there were no flaps or slats out in that photo which further supports my previous statement.

The pilots at this point failed to inform the tower about their failing engines in time, in which case the ATC could've given at a heading of around 070 directly parallel to the runway for a downwind.

As for the ATC saying belly landing as an option for the second approach, this implies that the Tower had seen the aircraft hitting the ground.
I heard from one of the ground crew members at Karachi that they found nuts and bolts and 6 inch pieces of cowling and panels, and that they had moved this debris to a separate location for investigation. The runway was barely, if not at all damaged. There were only marks left from the engines being dragged.

The rest we all know how it played out.

Remember these are just all speculations and theories based off of the evidences that we have gathered up till this point. I may very well be wrong and so can be anyone. The final decision is in the hands of the investigation team who are clearly more knowledgeable than us. Thankfully the results and the investigation will be transparent as per the orders of PM, and the fact that international authorities are involved.

I pray that inshallah there will be reforms in the entire system, being led by merit and not sifarish, and for all other corrupted and failing systems & institutions.

May Allah forgive the souls of everyone that has departed and left us, and may Allah guide us all and give us the ability and unity to prevent such incidents in the future so that countless innocent lives are not put in danger. Ameen.

Even though we can only speculate at the time, I completely agree with what you have written, but if the captain had called for gears up!, when do you think this happened? Do you think the FO retracted the landing gear without compensating the time it takes for the engine gaining full power for the go around?

[aur0ra]

AoA, Eid Mubarak.

I'm no aviator by all means but I do have quite a lot of experience with professional flight simulation over the past 6-7 years. Some of this information in my 'theory' was shared by an a320 pilot with around 17 years of experience via my uncle who's a recently retired Air Cmdr.

A chain of major SOP violations led to this tragic mishap causing the deaths of many innocent lives. Remember, this is just speculations and theories based off of preliminary information we have gathered. The ultimate conclusion/result will be given out by the investigation teams, who are more than qualified than any of us.

First of all, both pilots were fasting. This is a big violation as fasting leads to a low blood glucose level which in biology has negative effects on a person's concentration level and their reaction times. So it is recommended that you dont do any work that requires intense mental or physical exertion. So you either fly and don't fast, or you fast and don't fly.

Secondly, the pilots had ignored some warnings coming from Approach ATC (correct me if I'm wrong).

Moving on, and this is where the whole mishap could've been prevented even if it weren't in the pilots hands, the aircraft was on the glideslope for ILS 25L and was at 3500 ft at 5nm out, where normally you should be at 1500 ft. You can even hear the surprise or shock coming out of the tower when they tried to confirm this (this can also be a case where they didn't hear the pilots properly so they tried to confirm). After confirmation, ATC had cleared them for landing. If this was any other international airport, the tower would've cancelled their landing clearance and would've asked for them to come in for another approach. But in Pakistan unfortunately the culture is that the pilot is the ultimate authority.

Due to their extreme height at that point on the approach, the pilots had brought the throttle down to idle to compensate for the steep descent. Also, one of the survivors said that the cabin announcement was a normal one which further supports the claim that there was no technical problem or any malfunctions in the aircraft's systems. Ok now back to the main point. They had a steep descent towards the runway with thrust down to idle and they did come in full flaps and landing gear. Some people claim that the master warning alarm heard during the conversation between the ATC and pilots is the gear malfunctioning. It's not necessarily that. It could be anything. Maybe they were at a higher speed than the limits of the flaps as supported by their steep descent. We need to wait for further confirmation on this.

Now that they were at 1000 ft, they could've elected for a go around, or even at minimums. But they decided to continue with the approach at short final. When the pilots realised that they were too far ahead above the runway and that they could've overran the runway if they did touchdown, they decided to go around. The captain called for gear up and flaps up, with the throttle in TOGA. Problem here is, they came in with their thrust on idle, so the engine would've taken some time to spool up and to regain speed. The F/O had pulled all the flaps up without leaving behind some flaps or even bare slats for the go around. This led to the wings losing their lift accompanied with the low thrust due to the engine spool up time. At this time, the aircraft was more than half way down the runway and struck the runway around 3 times with it's engines.

Now that the aircraft got its thrust and regained some altitude, the engines were failing due to the impact they had gotten. The accessory gearboxes on the CFMs damage were badly damaged. This is supported by the photos taken by people on the other end of the runway at 07R. Also notice that there were no flaps or slats out in that photo which further supports my previous statement.

The pilots at this point failed to inform the tower about their failing engines in time, in which case the ATC could've given at a heading of around 070 directly parallel to the runway for a downwind.

As for the ATC saying belly landing as an option for the second approach, this implies that the Tower had seen the aircraft hitting the ground.
I heard from one of the ground crew members at Karachi that they found nuts and bolts and 6 inch pieces of cowling and panels, and that they had moved this debris to a separate location for investigation. The runway was barely, if not at all damaged. There were only marks left from the engines being dragged.

The rest we all know how it played out.

Remember these are just all speculations and theories based off of the evidences that we have gathered up till this point. I may very well be wrong and so can be anyone. The final decision is in the hands of the investigation team who are clearly more knowledgeable than us. Thankfully the results and the investigation will be transparent as per the orders of PM, and the fact that international authorities are involved.

I pray that inshallah there will be reforms in the entire system, being led by merit and not sifarish, and for all other corrupted and failing systems & institutions.

May Allah forgive the souls of everyone that has departed and left us, and may Allah guide us all and give us the ability and unity to prevent such incidents in the future so that countless innocent lives are not put in danger. Ameen.

Even though we can only speculate at the time, I completely agree with what you have written, but if the captain had called for gears up!, when do you think this happened? Do you think the FO retracted the landing gear without compensating the time it takes for the engine gaining full power for the go around?

To the extent of my knowledge, the captain had most likely called for gears up, flaps up (the F/O might've misheard this and retracted all of the flaps up) and for max throttle after the touchdown markings, around 1/3rd of the way down 25L, and yes, I do think that the F/O had retracted the landing gear prematurely. We can support this with the fact that they were fasting and couldn't concentrate properly, nor could they react fast enough or properly for this matter. Again, I emphasize that these are just speculations based on what we have learned so far, so please, nobody is to be blamed fully until we get further information. Always keep in mind that these people have families & friends and what would they think when reading this. I request everyone to remain civil.

[Abbas Ali]

According to latest reports:



The Flight Data Recorder (FDR) of the crashed PIA Airbus A320 (AP-BLD) was sent to Toulouse from Karachi today.



Today, Airbus A330-800 (aircraft registration F-WTTO) arrived in Toulouse Blagnac Airport, France, as Airbus flight AIB1889 from Karachi.


Source: flightradar24.com

Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) of the crashed PIA Airbus A320 (AP-BLD) has not been found, so far. Only, casing/cover of CVR was found at the crash site.



Authorities are hopeful of finding CVR when removal of aircraft wreckage begins on May 27.

Abbas

[rvlhassan]

It's possible that the CVR has been stolen...

[Abbas Ali]

According to PIA spokesperson:

Authorities are trying to find Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) of the crashed PIA Airbus A320 (AP-BLD).

Residents of Model Colony where the aircraft crashed have been urged to hand over any component/part of the aircraft found in their house to the authorities.

Model Colony residents urged not to keep any part/component of the aircraft in their house.

Every component/part of the aircraft is important for crash investigation.

Abbas

[rvlhassan]

This is Pakistan....at least 1/4 of the plane will be stolen

[fawad]

Don't these boxes have signals emitted? If so, it should be easy to trace.

[Abbas Ali]

^ Ping emitted under water by flight recorder's Underwater Locator Beacon (ULB).

Abbas

[umar744]

Is CVR from back tail or front in cockpit? if Tail rear maybe perhaps burn out. Perhaps maybe people accident throw CVR into rubbish bin or perhaps maybe stolen / theft for demand money million? but I think CVR can burn out high flammable? unknown information.