PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

[rayyanullah]

Everyone in Pakistan thinks he/she is above the law and rules are made for fools. Just take a look at the traffic on our roads and let me know if you see any discipline as no one cares about going the wrong way in a one way street, violating the traffic lights , not following lane discipline , not knowing who has the right on a roundabout etc. etc.; I could go on and on on.
Everyone in civil aviation is from the same stock of people and though those in aviation are trained more efficiently than road users herd mentality is bound to prevail at some time or other and like road users who hardly ever get caught same goes with those in aviation.
Here just to quote an example during Ramadan on any flight when cabin staff meet the cockpit staff their first question to the pilots is Sir are you fasting? When the pilot/s respond positively is it logged anywhere even for data analysis as it is "suggested" that flying during fasting is not recommended! Another data analysis case coming to mind is that though all pilots have to go through CRM , is there data of co-pilot or check pilot reports of CRM violation?
Change has to come simultaneously from top to bottom and bottom top so as to meet in the middle and make this country GREAT AGAIN as it was in the mid sixties.

[rvlhassan]

Everyone in Pakistan thinks he/she is above the law and rules are made for fools. Just take a look at the traffic on our roads and let me know if you see any discipline as no one cares about going the wrong way in a one way street, violating the traffic lights , not following lane discipline , not knowing who has the right on a roundabout etc. etc.; I could go on and on on.
Everyone in civil aviation is from the same stock of people and though those in aviation are trained more efficiently than road users herd mentality is bound to prevail at some time or other and like road users who hardly ever get caught same goes with those in aviation.
Here just to quote an example during Ramadan on any flight when cabin staff meet the cockpit staff their first question to the pilots is Sir are you fasting? When the pilot/s respond positively is it logged anywhere even for data analysis as it is "suggested" that flying during fasting is not recommended! Another data analysis case coming to mind is that though all pilots have to go through CRM , is there data of co-pilot or check pilot reports of CRM violation?
Change has to come simultaneously from top to bottom and bottom top so as to meet in the middle and make this country GREAT AGAIN as it was in the mid sixties.

100% percent agereed that everyone thinks they're above the law.

[TAILWIND]

I’m not sure if this guy is a « reliable «  source or not (i don’t follow pakistani channels usually), but interesting video nonetheless.

Nothing new or extraordinary in this video, just a sensational title to get hits and make money from youtube. Look at the way he is lounging in the lawn chair, and unprofessional manner of recording the video.
Unfortunately this guy thinks himself biggest aviation expert this side of Suez. [-X

[faisal-777]

@faisal-777 I agree with you to some extent. It is very important to keep in mind the reason for an investigation is to find the root cause(s) of the accident and remedy it so it doesn’t happen again, not blame a certain individual. Even if the ultimate line of defence lies with the crew, it doesn’t start there. Let’s say hypothetically that crew made wrong decisions, investigation need to find why they did this error (fatigue, training, recklessness,...).
A question I ask myself: Why do we have so many crashes in Pakistan, even though same type of aircrafts are used worldwide with excellent safety records?

This sad event offers some answer to that - it looks like our pilots are very "comfortable" violating the SOPs and more than 95% of times they get away with it. Just like the crew here who was hot & high and found it totally ok to approach. I cannot imagine they were under pressure to land on first go like many budget airlines usually instruct their pilots to do so (to save fuel). Still they found it totally ok to make an approach which should never have happened.

No one will write it in investigation report but general Pakistani mentality of those who hold experience in any organization (not only aviation, but private industrial sector, government sector) is to follow the gut feeling and not what procedures adapt. Pilots are one of us - it is unlikely they can transform into a totally different human being of society even after hours of training.

And you are spot on with the comment that we never try to investigate the root cause. The Air blue report for example is more like an account of events, not an investigation. It only writes a good story of what happened, what actions were taken but seems to not look into why the pilot was acting that way. Reason for pilot's behavior is the root cause, not putting wrong way points and ending up in hills.

[Hassan777]

@faisal-777 I agree with you to some extent. It is very important to keep in mind the reason for an investigation is to find the root cause(s) of the accident and remedy it so it doesn’t happen again, not blame a certain individual. Even if the ultimate line of defence lies with the crew, it doesn’t start there. Let’s say hypothetically that crew made wrong decisions, investigation need to find why they did this error (fatigue, training, recklessness,...).
A question I ask myself: Why do we have so many crashes in Pakistan, even though same type of aircrafts are used worldwide with excellent safety records?

This sad event offers some answer to that - it looks like our pilots are very "comfortable" violating the SOPs and more than 95% of times they get away with it. Just like the crew here who was hot & high and found it totally ok to approach. I cannot imagine they were under pressure to land on first go like many budget airlines usually instruct their pilots to do so (to save fuel). Still they found it totally ok to make an approach which should never have happened.

No one will write it in investigation report but general Pakistani mentality of those who hold experience in any organization (not only aviation, but private industrial sector, government sector) is to follow the gut feeling and not what procedures adapt. Pilots are one of us - it is unlikely they can transform into a totally different human being of society even after hours of training.

And you are spot on with the comment that we never try to investigate the root cause. The Air blue report for example is more like an account of events, not an investigation. It only writes a good story of what happened, what actions were taken but seems to not look into why the pilot was acting that way. Reason for pilot's behavior is the root cause, not putting wrong way points and ending up in hills.

https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/Upload/S ... IB-337.pdf

Here you can read the investigation report,though there’s no insight on as to why the pilot was soo stubborn and wasn’t even letting his FO speak but the safety recommendations given in the report already, it doesn’t look like they were implemented , we surely need a better Investigation board and a stricter CAA safety implementation.

[faisal-777]

@faisal-777 I agree with you to some extent. It is very important to keep in mind the reason for an investigation is to find the root cause(s) of the accident and remedy it so it doesn’t happen again, not blame a certain individual. Even if the ultimate line of defence lies with the crew, it doesn’t start there. Let’s say hypothetically that crew made wrong decisions, investigation need to find why they did this error (fatigue, training, recklessness,...).
A question I ask myself: Why do we have so many crashes in Pakistan, even though same type of aircrafts are used worldwide with excellent safety records?

This sad event offers some answer to that - it looks like our pilots are very "comfortable" violating the SOPs and more than 95% of times they get away with it. Just like the crew here who was hot & high and found it totally ok to approach. I cannot imagine they were under pressure to land on first go like many budget airlines usually instruct their pilots to do so (to save fuel). Still they found it totally ok to make an approach which should never have happened.

No one will write it in investigation report but general Pakistani mentality of those who hold experience in any organization (not only aviation, but private industrial sector, government sector) is to follow the gut feeling and not what procedures adapt. Pilots are one of us - it is unlikely they can transform into a totally different human being of society even after hours of training.

And you are spot on with the comment that we never try to investigate the root cause. The Air blue report for example is more like an account of events, not an investigation. It only writes a good story of what happened, what actions were taken but seems to not look into why the pilot was acting that way. Reason for pilot's behavior is the root cause, not putting wrong way points and ending up in hills.

https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/Upload/S ... IB-337.pdf

Here you can read the investigation report,though there’s no insight on as to why the pilot was soo stubborn and wasn’t even letting his FO speak but the safety recommendations given in the report already, it doesn’t look like they were implemented , we surely need a better Investigation board and a stricter CAA safety implementation.

That is also precisely my point that this report is not an "investigation report". It is more like an account of events and does not try to find answers for pilot's behavior.

[Hassan777]

@faisal-777 I agree with you to some extent. It is very important to keep in mind the reason for an investigation is to find the root cause(s) of the accident and remedy it so it doesn’t happen again, not blame a certain individual. Even if the ultimate line of defence lies with the crew, it doesn’t start there. Let’s say hypothetically that crew made wrong decisions, investigation need to find why they did this error (fatigue, training, recklessness,...).
A question I ask myself: Why do we have so many crashes in Pakistan, even though same type of aircrafts are used worldwide with excellent safety records?

This sad event offers some answer to that - it looks like our pilots are very "comfortable" violating the SOPs and more than 95% of times they get away with it. Just like the crew here who was hot & high and found it totally ok to approach. I cannot imagine they were under pressure to land on first go like many budget airlines usually instruct their pilots to do so (to save fuel). Still they found it totally ok to make an approach which should never have happened.

No one will write it in investigation report but general Pakistani mentality of those who hold experience in any organization (not only aviation, but private industrial sector, government sector) is to follow the gut feeling and not what procedures adapt. Pilots are one of us - it is unlikely they can transform into a totally different human being of society even after hours of training.

And you are spot on with the comment that we never try to investigate the root cause. The Air blue report for example is more like an account of events, not an investigation. It only writes a good story of what happened, what actions were taken but seems to not look into why the pilot was acting that way. Reason for pilot's behavior is the root cause, not putting wrong way points and ending up in hills.

https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/Upload/S ... IB-337.pdf

Here you can read the investigation report,though there’s no insight on as to why the pilot was soo stubborn and wasn’t even letting his FO speak but the safety recommendations given in the report already, it doesn’t look like they were implemented , we surely need a better Investigation board and a stricter CAA safety implementation.

That is also precisely my point that this report is not an "investigation report". It is more like an account of events and does not try to find answers for pilot's behavior.

If you look at NTSBs go team’s members there aren’t just air force officers in there, there are aviation experts,engineers,pilots and even a psychologist, AAIB has only 2 mostly and rarely add more members and it’s a joke compared to NTSBs team,When will they change?

[AviationLover2020]

AoA all. Since most members on this forum are more knowledgeable in this matter than me, I wish to put forward a theory I heard somewhere but I'm not sure how realistic this is. If anyone could tell me whether this is a possible reason for the crash or not & why, I would appreciate it. The theory was;
The aircraft came in for landing very fast and with a rapid rate of descent. Before landing the pilots decided to go around & pulled the gear up in anticipation of going around, but while the pilots pushed the throttle to full, in between the time taken for enough thrust to kick in to actually pull the plane back up, the plane scraped the runway before pulling back up into the air. The rest we know. I personally wasn't of this opinion but it sounded convincing enough. Is is possible that the pilots intended to go around due to their fast speed & rapid descent rate and pulled the gear up, but couldnt generate enough thrust in time to pull the plane up fully & thus it grazed the runway?

Any answers appreciated.

[oozeman64]

AoA all. Since most members on this forum are more knowledgeable in this matter than me, I wish to put forward a theory I heard somewhere but I'm not sure how realistic this is. If anyone could tell me whether this is a possible reason for the crash or not & why, I would appreciate it. The theory was;
The aircraft came in for landing very fast and with a rapid rate of descent. Before landing the pilots decided to go around & pulled the gear up in anticipation of going around, but while the pilots pushed the throttle to full, in between the time taken for enough thrust to kick in to actually pull the plane back up, the plane scraped the runway before pulling back up into the air. The rest we know. I personally wasn't of this opinion but it sounded convincing enough. Is is possible that the pilots intended to go around due to their fast speed & rapid descent rate and pulled the gear up, but couldnt generate enough thrust in time to pull the plane up fully & thus it grazed the runway?

Any answers appreciated.

This could be the reason for the engine scrape.

However, there are SOPs made to prevent this from occuring, and if followed correctly, the engines wouldn't touch the ground in this instance.

This is because during a go around (or takeoff), according to SOP, the landing gears aren't retracted (pulled back up) until the aircraft is flying at a positive rate of climb and is gaining altitude. This is so that even if a go around is initiated very late, it would be the gears that came in contact with the ground.

So yes, it is a possibility but only if SOPs are broken.

If the captain was PF (Pilot Flying) and the FO was PM (Pilot Monitoring), (which seems to the case) it would be the FOs job during the go around to retract the gears after a positive rate of climb had been achieved.
The lack of experience on the A320 for the FO means that this could be a factor that lead to the engine strike, due to gears being retracted before a positive rate of climb was achieved.
Also, jet engines are known for taking some time between thrust set and the engines actually spooling up, and the humidity on the day meant that it may take a little longer than usual.

As always, these are all possibilities, and are not confirmed.

[Abbas Ali]

The French investigation team visited crash site today.

The team has arrived at Karachi Airport where it will inspect runway, control tower and radar control.

Abbas

[umar744]

Good morning hello how are you? I hope you are well. I am fine. Nice know you. I am very surprised that A330-800neo & French team only short time few 5 hours in Karachi quickly back fly to Paris instead of stay long time in Karachi?

[Abbas Ali]

^ The French investigation team is still in Karachi.

The A330 has departed from Karachi probably with PIA A320 flight recorders.

Abbas

[Abbas Ali]

October 30, 2014, when AP-BLD arrived in Pakistan to join PIA fleet as dry leased aircraft for six years. Note PIA green and yellow stripes were painted incorrectly when it was delivered to the airline.

The A320 was acquired on lease from GE Capital Aviation Services (GECAS).


October 30, 2014 - PIA Airbus A320-214 (AP-BLD) taking rest at Benazir Bhutto International Air Port (BBIAP) - Islamabad after completion of delivery flight PK1786 from Shanghai via Dhaka.


October 30, 2014 - AP-BLD passenger cabin.


October 30, 2014 - Chairman PIA Nasser N.S. Jaffer talking to Advisor to Prime Minister on Aviation Capt. Shujaat Azeem aboard AP-BLD.


October 30, 2014 - AP-BLD cockpit.

Abbas

[Abbas Ali]

The French investigation team may extend its stay in Karachi for one or two more days, according to news reports.

Abbas

[umar744]

how will French team fly back to France after investigate in Karachi?