What now?

[Charliedelta11]

Just 3 days before the crash of the Ill-fated fokker , my father and countless other pilots got letters asking them to opt for command on the Fokkers...this goes to show that had it not been for this crash..PIA would have continued operating these 'flying coffins ' ( as some one mentioned earlier..)..

the other day i was coming from KL on PK899 , and we were about to park at the terminal...sitting at the flight deck my father pointed out how not a single fokker was present at the apron..all ahd been removed..this is where he also said they were now being converted to freighters ( U MORONS AT THE MANAGEMENT HOW DOES THAT MAKE THEM ANY LESS DANGEROUS?!)
we were jsut about to stop at the walkway when he also pointed toward the 737 parked next to us..( i'll check and see if i have a picture).,.what was shocking here was that the lower part of the rudder had intense rust on it and was severely cracked...cracked i'd say is not the best word..broken would be correct...and this aircraft was getting ready to operate another flight!

The fokkers are gone..the 737's are nearing their end and are antiquated..the entire world is moving ahead buying newer 737 models..how can PIA present itself at the international level when its conditions are so pitiful?!...the 747's are being outsourced..in a frew years nothing will be left of our national carrier..why buy new aircraft when u cant look after the ones u alrewady have in ur fleet?!

they threw away money on the 777LR which ahs been a complet e waste...they are going on buying 777's with NO plan in mind...they have the Americas figured out...but what about the rest of the wqorld ? Will the A310's which they are relying so heavily on for Europe and the far east ALONG with the middle east be a viable option for the next 10 years ? They are about to reach their 20 year mark with PIA and are old technology...they need to think fast and hard...

what i cant comprehend is they got rid of the A300's so quickly when compared to the Fokkers they were relatively brand new..

Look at how far Air India and Indian Airlines have gone...their fleet status wsas similar to PIA's...now they are eons ahead...cant we take THEM as role models and move ahead?!

some one also needs to tell them that spending 80000 Euro's remodelling each aircraft doesnt make things any better...
lets just pray PIA doesnt crash and burn and fizzle out...

[TAILWIND]

....the other day i was coming from KL on PK899 , and we were about to park at the terminal...sitting at the flight deck my father pointed out how not a single fokker was present at the apron..

......he also said they were now being converted to freighters ( U MORONS AT THE MANAGEMENT HOW DOES THAT MAKE THEM ANY LESS DANGEROUS?!) .........

Were you the co-pilot to your father or just enjoying the previlage as captain's son? > If so isn't there an airline policy of cockpit sensitization during landing/take off.

ANyway have good fun >

Now coming to the actual thread. ......The loss of coleagues and other passengers notwithstanding it is sad to hear professionals pass the verdict before the jury is out. DO you really think that the age of the fokker was sole cause of the accident. Mind you a structurally intact aircaft never crashes on its own. There are other factors causing or contributing to that. There are strong rumours (I would call these runours as nothing has been established yet) and photos which suggest that one engine was in feathered position implying it had flamed out and props on the other show that i struck the ground with (full?) power. I am not blaming anyone but just guessing that if indeed it was an engine failure in an otherwise structurally intact aircraft, which we assume from evidence that AP-BAL was, then why it did not sustain flight on one engine. It should have, if it was NOT over loaded or single engine emegency procedures properly executed.
The point I want to make is that atleast professionals and many are indeed in this forum, should not join chorus with ignorant media and the federal cabinet and blame the poor fokker's age to absolve others. Grounding of the fleet is an emotional decision taken in haste and does absolutely no good to the international reputation of PIA. Will any safety consious passenger both pakistani and foreigner ever board PIA if he knows and now belives that PIA was indeed flying aircraft well past their stipulated life as the decision to ground them implies???????

what was shocking here was that the lower part of the rudder had intense rust on it and was severely cracked...cracked i'd say is not the best word..broken would be correct...and this aircraft was getting ready to operate another flight!.......

I cant believe that. And if it was so, what did your father, a senior PIA captain, do to avert a potentially catastrophic situation????? Did he inform PIA safety department or even still CAA vigilance about his or your observation???????? or chose to go for a well desrved rest after a long flight and let that 737 alongwith passengers and crew take off for their destiny with a BROKEN rudder?????
Ragards

[Abbas Ali]

pointed toward the 737 parked next to us..( i'll check and see if i have a picture).,.what was shocking here was that the lower part of the rudder had intense rust on it and was severely cracked...cracked i'd say is not the best word..broken would be correct...and this aircraft was getting ready to operate another flight!

Probably hydraulic leak from the rudder actuators? After a couple of flights, the streaking appears on rudder and then dirt begins to accumulate on the streaks. From distance it looks like rust but actually it’s just dirt stains. Photo of the aircraft will clear the matter.

Abbas

[Moin]

Like I said before, PIA has been concentrating more on the larger jet replacement than the Fokkers. They were never given priority as far as replacing is concerned.

There was talk about replacing the 733's with NG 737-700's but now that they're doing the LAP modification, I doubt they're going anywhere. I'd love to see a fleet of about 5 737-700 and 5 737-800 replacing these 733's but right now thats a distant dream.

And as long as the Ministry of Defence has anything to do with PIA, they will give sole priority to their requirements first, being F-16's. Let the sheepish public be subjected to flying in a/c over a quarter century old, they need their state of the art brand new F-16's.

Thats the way it goes. Know of any other country on this planet who's airline is controlled by the Ministry of Defence??

[momers]

. Grounding of the fleet is an emotional decision taken in haste and does absolutely no good to the international reputation of PIA.

I dont get it? I have seen this statement thrown every now and then by our PIA enthusiasts, but why, i still dont get it?

Is the safety of people not a prime concern? Is it not possible that there might be some thing wrong with how the entire fokker fleet has been maintained recently?

There are always unknowns in any technology implementation, old or new, and it takes sytematic study to figure those out.

The Concordes were grounded after a single crash...even though the Concordes had a stellar safety record in terms of hours flown and god know what else. And after only One crash the entire concorde fleet was grounded.
Im sure Concorde enthusiasts would NOT have been screaming their hearts out that grounding the aircraft was an Emotional decision? Look at what the investigation threw at them. Puncture prone fuel tanks. Who would have thought?

All those saying that it was an emotional decision tell me by swearing on Quran or any other book they believe in or dont, that the maintenance of the fokkers or any other aircraft in PIA's fleet is always done according to standards? That its 100% by the book or that all the best practices are followed in letter in spirit?
Yes there is always the chance of human error, but we all know that all of us Pakistanis, all of us as a Nation are experts in, what they call in urdu "Dundee Maarnaa"...taking shortcuts, or just getting things done by hook or by crook for the time being? Duct tape solutions some would say.

My point is, there is no such thing as perfect maintenance. And then when such an incident occurs (with a record to match), its only logical to put a halt to things, take a deep breath and start afresh. You can't bury your head in the sand like an ostrich and act like nothing happened.

The grounding of fokkers was not an emotional decision but a purely rational one in my opinion. Its the people shouting unfair who need to check their emotions. What matters to them, the aircraft, the company's reputation or the safety of lives?

[FULLTHRUST]

My point is, there is no such thing as perfect maintenance.

Everything done on the aircraft is according to the Aircraft Maintenance Manuals, and the ground engineers/technicians do it right. OR if they dont, it is a CRIME.

So who is going to be a crime stopper? me, you, forum members, cabinet, pia management, pilots, engineers, technicians, CAA, who?????

For most of the members information, when the engineer releases the aircraft for service (from maintenance) one of the cockpit crew does the external 360 and preflight checks, after going through the technical log book, which has the history of the maintenance done on the aircraft.

in the same fashion, BAL would have been released to service, the captain accepted the aircraft for flight, and then.....who knows.

Lets wait for the investigations, and those who have the knowledge of DART engines, are very close to identify the real cause.

[FULLTHRUST]

Also, if they (engrs/techs) dont do it right, it does not work at all.

[Gulistan]

And as long as the Ministry of Defence has anything to do with PIA, they will give sole priority to their requirements first, being F-16's. Let the sheepish public be subjected to flying in a/c over a quarter century old, they need their state of the art brand new F-16's.

Thats the way it goes. Know of any other country on this planet who's airline is controlled by the Ministry of Defence??

The F16 have nothing to do with taking money away from PIA, the F16 is being financed by the yanks thriugh FMS. Just look ay Palestine and Lebanon we need the F16 just as much as new commercial jets.

[FULLTHRUST]

but now that they're doing the LAP modification

till the time pia engineering is headed by MISTRI Mentality chief engineers and a non business minded director engineering (now svp engineering), the modifications like 737 lap joint will be carried out, because khanay peenay ka kharcha kahan say aaey gaa.

New fleet less maintenance........lesser employees
Old fleet more maintenance........more employees

Modifications, Check D's, ..........money making events!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Moin]

My friend, WE are paying for those F-16's. It may not be openly stated but its the taxpayer who foots the bill in the end.

Every year the defence budget is increased and a hell of alot more priority is given to that versus the airline.

[TAILWIND]

Momers Said

Quote:
. Grounding of the fleet is an emotional decision taken in haste and does absolutely no good to the international reputation of PIA.


I dont get it? I have seen this statement thrown every now and then by our PIA enthusiasts, but why, i still dont get it?
.............
There are always unknowns in any technology implementation, old or new, and it takes sytematic study to figure those out.

The Concordes were grounded after a single crash...even though the Concordes had a stellar safety record in terms of hours flown and god know what else. And after only One crash the entire concorde fleet was grounded.

Thats the whole point. The Concorde fleet, immediately after the crash of AF-4590, was grounded purely only technical grounds. Its a norm in aviation that a regulator, manufacturer or the operator itself may ground the fleet following a crash if they suspect any design or other flaw which they think can effect whole fleet.

The second time the fleet was grounded and sadly for good, was purely for economic reasons. The airlines even after having spent millions on modifictaions could not win the passengers' confidence and were not finding it profitable to operate the Concorde anymore.

What we have done after the fokker crash?, Raised hue and cry about the age of fleet, spread rumours about the poor standard of PIA maintenance, cast doubts on the PIA operations by allegations e.g overloading the aircraft with mangoes disregarding the aircraft weight limitations and icing on the cake was the cabinet decision to ground the fleet since it was 'too old and unsafe for passenger operations'.

This implies that till 1203 hrs 10 Jul, an unsafe and unflyworthy aircraft was operating on revenue service carrying passengers by a national flag career (PIA), under the nose of a national aviation regulator (CAA).

Then somebody (Charliedelta) comes up with an eyewitness account that he saw a BROKEN rudder on a PIA 737 ready for passenger flights. Thanks to Mr Abbass Ali for correction.

Probably hydraulic leak from the rudder actuators?

I wonder what message all this would send to future PIA passengers, No doubt PIA has changed its corporate identity from decades old "GREAT PEOPLE TO FLY WITH" to "COME FLY WITH US", will someone still come and fly????????
regards

[Charliedelta11]

oh..if u ask for permission ur allowed to visit the cockpit...even during take off or landing...if that wasnt the case then the countless videos present online wouldnt have been there...so 'cockpit sensitization' is an issue only in some specific cases
and the verdict ur talking about...this is pakistan...there is a high probability that there will be NO jury..no professionals wil be hired...bodies that were offerring crash investigation services for free were not hired...so what makes u think a timely investigation report will be presented ? so people will jump to conclusions......
and i think professionals are in a better position to come to conclusions especially if they've flown this equipment...especially in the absence of a jury...( if oines been just formed...please correct me...and by one i mean one that is competent and doesnt have people who have been brought in due to govtr pressure...)..sir i dont know if ur involved in PIA , especially as a pilot...but if u were..u would know that the Fokker was a death trap..it had lived way past its due age...and this was not an emotional decision taken in haste...(Tailwind)

and i'm sorry but i went through my pics and i dont have one...just a video..
and abbas bhai couyld be right....it could be due to actuators...

so do keep in mind the fact that age is important...and with age the structure does tend to weaken...why this fact was over looked baffles me...