Concern over Boeing 777s' quality

[PakN'US]

Concern over B-777s' quality

From AMRAIZ KHAN
LAHORE - The B-777s delivered to PIA earlier this year are stated to be not up to the required specification and the management has expressed its concern over its quality, sources in the national flag carrier confided to The Nation here on Sunday.
As per sources, the planes cannot gain the required height during flight and are consuming more fuel, causing loss to the airline.
Two reasons are being attributed to not gaining the required height - the fuel burden and climate of the country. The plane was purchased to fly non-stop to New York, Toronto and Chicago, so it has to carry a huge amount of fuel; consequently cannot gain the required height during the initial three hours flight.
However, when a certain quantity of fuel was consumed, the plane could gain required height - ‘’when a plane makes low flight it consumes more fuel’’ an official of engineering department said.
Temperature and climate of the country was also described as hindrance in the take off of the plane.
One of the staffer, serving in the said plane said that in-flight entertainment system was not properly working from the very first day of its operation. When asked, how the passengers were enduring such situation, he said, ‘’one passenger does not travel regularly, so who knows that the system of the plane was not functional; moreover, also Pakistani passengers travel by PIA just keeping in view their loyalty to the country not services.
A PIA official requesting anonymity said the said planes were purchased specially for the non-stop flight from Pakistan to US, but after their delivery to PIA, US security forces did not allow direct flights from Pakistani International Airports to USA.
According to the sources, US security forces declared Karachi airport as the only secured airport, and allowed direct flights from there - PIA was ready to operate its non-stop flights from Karachi but DG CAA took stand on the issue and did not allow operation from Karachi also.
Besides this, there was also shortage of the skilled pilots to operate the B-777 as only senior pilots could fly such planes. A number of pilots have already left the Airline to seek better opportunities of job.
According to the IATA rules the pilots operating B-777 were supposed to be relieved of duty three hours before and three hours after the flight in order to ready themselves for the next flight but the pilots were being given no such facilities.
To operate the B-777, a pilot will have to go through a training program. Some circles in PIA revealed that the airline was trying to come over the issue.
As cargo section of the plane is also very small, the cargo business has also been reduced, as per the sources.
Members of the board of directors were not informed about the details of the deal of the planes and they had no clue about the deal until February 26, 2004 when the PIA Board met for its 276th meting, even after the first plane had been delivered.
The management through a system of ‘circulation’ approved all the resolutions of the Board, which is another way of avoiding any serious discussion on the agenda.
When contacted to know the point of view of PIA, spokesman of PIA Capt. Hassan Jafery did not attend his mobile phone, whereas a family member of the other spokesman Bashir said he was not available at home.

http://nation.com.pk/daily/may-2006/22/index6.php

[Moin]

First they go making statements which they cannot backup and then when they're contacted, they dissapear. I suppose the cargo capacity of the AB4 was so much superior wasn't it?

[behramjee]

According to the sources, US security forces declared Karachi airport as the only secured airport, and allowed direct flights from there - PIA was ready to operate its non-stop flights from Karachi but DG CAA took stand on the issue and did not allow operation from Karachi also.

what a fool that chap is if this is indeed true...flights could have easily been ISB-KHI-JFK / LHE-KHI-JFK thus making KHI the hub everyone wants it to be.

[umar744]

my friend captain pia a310 said that your story is right. he said pia should buy airbus A330 A340 etc. he knew USA never offer nonstop to PIA. PIA waste time & waste money bought 777 but 777 weight some restricted. Airbus have no problem weight. A310 full payload without fuel is 114000kg plus full fuel 50,000kg = 164000kg only AP-BGQ, AP-BGR, AP-BGS are best.
PIA's three 777ER AP-BGJ,BGK,BGL full payload 199000kg and full fuel 135000kg but max take off 273000kg cannot fly nonstop more than 9 hours.
last year November 2005 very very few people less 10 people watched 777LR world record landed LHR heathrow
last thursday 18 may lots of people thousand hundred over 100,000people watched Airbus A380 overfly and landed to London LHR Heathrow. People like Airbus best No.1
Airbus is good service than Boeing.
Best wishes and kindest regards
umar

[PK777]

last year November 2005 very very few people less 10 people watched 777LR world record landed LHR heathrow
last thursday 18 may lots of people thousand hundred over 100,000people watched Airbus A380 overfly and landed to London LHR Heathrow. People like Airbus best No.1

No offence Umar, but that has to be one of the most stupid statements ive heard, how can you compare the Airbus A380 a completely new aircraft and design ( first of its kind ) to the Boeing 777-240/LR (which is part of a family that already exsits the only new thing about the LR was the additional fuel tanks and ranked wingtips compared to the ER), so obviously people are not going to turn out in their hundreds just to see the same exterior with some new designed wings

Secondly, as PIA is the first airline to operate such an aircraft there are going to be teething problems with new technology...just because the latest additions are having some problems doesnt mean the entire fleet of B777s are all in bad shape. Im sure, Boeing will help PIA in these problems as they too want this aircraft to succeed.

Finally, if PIA knew they were not going to get right to the US, then why bother with the LRs why not buy 2ERs or 3ERs as they were much cheaper ( I think ? ) compared to the B772LR. Surely, PIA and the Pakistani Govt should have found out if they were going to be given rights to the US before they bought the B772LRs, was there any permission given back in 2002 ?

[AIR PAKISTAN]

One of the most stupid news item i have ever read regarding any airline. This man might even not know how to differenciate between a B772 and an AB310 but he is giving his opinions as if he is the ultimate aviation expert.

[Charliedelta11]

i've been wanting to post the new magazine that PIA has sent out to its pilots..i've got it scanned but its on my other hard drive..will post it asap..it has a few interesting things..especially regarding PIA's fleet expansion...will post it tonite...hopefuly...which has a bit to do with this article...

[Imran Hassan]

This is indeed a very stupid news release I hold no trust in this article and perhaps the management should have decided the reality of what it's like to operate ultra-long range aircraft before splashing out large sums of money then complaining about it.

Its not like the A340 is any better infact many airlines are going for the 777-300ER/200LR rather then the A340-600HGW/500HGW. Many airlines operate the 777 worldwide and it is probably one of the most efficient aircraft to fly if not the most. operating costs of the 777 family are extreamly low, then we move onto the reliability record which is excellent on the 777 the same can not be said for many other aircraft.

I still stand by PIA's decision to order the 777 afterall the A340 cost 15% more to operate due to it havig 4 engines instead of 2.

[Imran Hassan]

Take a look at this http://www.airliners.net/discussions/ge ... n/2784200/

especially this post:

This not a simple cut and dry issue, they have been complaining about this for a couple of years. As part of the deal, Boeing was to provide fee parts and service, which didn't turn out exactly as they thought.

This has been reported before in the Satribune newpapers with problems they have had with other 777s. Have a look at this link to see how the locals view the situation deal....http://flightsimpakistan.com/fsp/aviati ... lunder.htm


Maybe something in it, maybe not. One does wonder how one of the poorest third world countries that relies heavily on international aid was able to become the launch customer of the 772LR.

[Moin]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The 777 family of a/c have been proved to be a superior versus the A340 family. The fact that Airbus has even admitted as such is proof enough.

As far as fuel consumption goes, its not rocket science to be able to realise that 4 engines consume more fuel than 2.

PIA has the capability, more experience and knowhow to service and maintain GE engines as compared to RR (which is only available with the A345 and A346) and they haven't exactly experienced a cakewalk with maintaining the 743's RR engines.

Go on facts and figures, look at the sales record and performance of the 777 versus the A340. I would deem that alot more credible than the words of some A310 captain.

Lastly, the 777 and A380 are as similar as chalk is from cheese. They cater to different markets and requirments. The A380 is an a/c the size of which the world has never seen before. Of course one million people will turn out to see it. No ones ever seen anything quite like it and will not, unless Boeing decides to proceed with the 747-8 but even that may not match the size of the A380. So comparing the number of people who turn out to see an a/c is not evidence of its superiority.

Go back to 1969-70. The first 747 is launched and at the same time Airbus launches its first A300B (I'm giving an example only, the AB3 came later than the 747) and both a/c are scheduled to make their first public appearances at the Paris Air Show. Now you tell me, which a/c would be more eager to see? I certainly know which one.

[nutsforplanes]

This is probaly the worst written article about PIA in recent times apart from the SA Tribune which came out sometime last year.

According to the IATA rules the pilots operating B-777 were supposed to be relieved of duty three hours before and three hours after the flight in order to ready themselves for the next flight but the pilots were being given no such facilities

... three hours before the flight..... means what exactly???

As cargo section of the plane is also very small, the cargo business has also been reduced, as per the sources.

...and PIA did not know that before purchasing the aeroplane. Cargo section is small compared to what?

Members of the board of directors were not informed about the details of the deal of the planes and they had no clue about the deal until February 26, 2004

Ok! So who is running the airline. What planes are these the 200 LR's or 200 ER's

[momers]

To be very honest guys, just from the language used on the original Nation article...i never believed a word of this.

This is typical pakistani gossip style BS that goes thrown out in the urdu press typically, where every one in the world has designs against pakistan and theres a conspiracy to do some harm to the muslims!

The dude who wrote this i think had a chat with just a some one and then joined together tidbits from here and there...

Cargo capcity compared to what....does he know LR's have extra fuel tanks?

An i think the dude was talking about LR's delivered in the beginning of this year and then he goes on to rant about the management not knowing about the planes or whatever until after they were delivered...and hes talking in a 2004 time frame?

What has he been smoking??!! Is he another "JAHAAZ"?!!! heheh!

And i have to browse through the article on the airline.net forum and hope some one puts a stop to this debate there UNLESS there is an official statement from PIA to corroborate some of the performance deficiencies as alleged by the original article.

[Jacobin777]

To be very honest guys, just from the language used on the original Nation article...i never believed a word of this.

This is typical pakistani gossip style BS that goes thrown out in the urdu press typically, where every one in the world has designs against pakistan and theres a conspiracy to do some harm to the muslims!

The dude who wrote this i think had a chat with just a some one and then joined together tidbits from here and there...

Cargo capcity compared to what....does he know LR's have extra fuel tanks?

An i think the dude was talking about LR's delivered in the beginning of this year and then he goes on to rant about the management not knowing about the planes or whatever until after they were delivered...and hes talking in a 2004 time frame?

What has he been smoking??!! Is he another "JAHAAZ"?!!! heheh!

And i have to browse through the article on the airline.net forum and hope some one puts a stop to this debate there UNLESS there is an official statement from PIA to corroborate some of the performance deficiencies as alleged by the original article.

I agree with basically everthing you said, however, PK didn't have the -200LR's installed with optional tanks...they didn't need them...

[Imran Hassan]

Yes they didn't need them but provisions were built into them to allow EASY installation and removal in the future, this is truely flexible and easily done.

[B777240ER]

Members of the board of directors were not informed about the details of the deal of the planes and they had no clue about the deal until February 26, 2004 when the PIA Board met for its 276th meting, even after the first plane had been delivered.

Had no clue about the deal until Feb 26th?? This is when PK got their first B772!
The whole world knew about the deal before it was signed when PK was choosing between A340 and B772.

Don't the board of directors read the news?