Shut Houston & make Chicago thrice weekly

Discuss issues and news related to PIA, Pakistani airlines and Pakistan's civil & military aviation.
Amaad Lone
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Shut Houston & make Chicago thrice weekly

Post by Amaad Lone »

Does it make sense to operate one flight a week to any destination.

The crew that takes the flight into Houston stays there for six days before operating the return flight, that has to be the longest layover in the history of aviation.

Maybe Houston should be shut down, and that flight should be diverted to Chicago from where PIA should code share for Houston.

Give the Houston passengers options of five New York flights and three Chicago flights, rather than one miserable flight a week.

Plus the crew staying for six days can end, considering PIA is crying about lack of 777 crews, well make this one more productive.
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behramjee
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Post by behramjee »

in my suggestions to PIA post in Dec which I emailed them, I believe I made a similar suggestion along your lines...both very valid points.
behramjee
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Post by behramjee »

To begin with, PIA should have learnt by now that flying to any long haul city from Pakistan especially North America will never break even if the frequency is only twice a week – 2 stop flights in the peak season and in the off season once a week – 2 stop flights as is the case with IAH-Houston. This isn’t the 1970’s and 1980’s when fuel prices and competition was much less than what it is today. At the end of the day, PIA is a business and not a charity organization catering to the needs of local and expat Pakistanis abroad.

Therefore to begin with all flights to Houston should be suspended indefinitely as the route has made a massive loss since its launch in June 2004. So great is the loss that during the off season, the city sees only a once a week frequency and even that flight struggles to attract a 70% load factor both ways.

The best way to serve North America for PIA is by entering into a broad based alliance with American Airlines (AA) as its major hubs are for PIA’s sake conveniently located at JFK and ORD-Chicago O Hare airports. From either one of these 2 airports, all the major Pakistani populated cities in USA are served nonstop by AA such as Baltimore-BWI, Washington DC-IAD, Boston-BOS, Philadelphia-PHL, MIA-Miami, San Francisco-SFO, Seattle-SEA, Dallas-DFW, Phoenix-PHX, Houston-IAH, Las Vegas-LAS, Atlanta-ATL, Cincinnati-CVG, Oakland-OAK, San Jose-SJC and Detroit-DTW.

LAX is also a hub for AA so if PIA’s future plans for North America call for LAX, ORD and JFK to be online destinations then that’s perfect as via LAX on AA (through a SPA-Sales Promotion Agreement), the U.S. West Coast + Arizona is covered + via ORD on AA, the Midwest and Southern States are covered and lastly via JFK on AA, the entire U.S. East Coast from Pennsylvania all the way down to Florida is adequately covered. But for this to effectively happen and to appeal to the high yielding business class passenger especially, PIA must have a frequency of at least 3 weekly flights to both ORD and LAX in addition to JFK being served 5 times per week minimum.

The route structure should be the following:
a) JFK - 5 weekly flights seeing 2 weekly LHE-KHI-JFK with a B 773ER + 2 weekly ISB-KHI-JFK with a B 772LR + 1 weekly LHE-ISB-JFK with a B 772LR.

b) ORD – 3 weekly nonstop flights from Pakistan with a B 772LR routed LHE-KHI-ORD.

c) LAX – 3 weekly B 772ER flights routed via PVG in order to attract the high yielding 5th freedom traffic on this key trans-pacific route which only sees one airline namely China Eastern flying it nonstop 4 times a week with an Airbus A 340-600.
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Post by Moin »

Why not just have the ORD flight continue on to IAH or fly to ORD via IAH? that way both destinations can be served by a single a/c. If the flight terminates at ORD via IAH, the crew can disemabark at ORD.
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behramjee
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Post by behramjee »

Moin wrote:Why not just have the ORD flight continue on to IAH or fly to ORD via IAH? that way both destinations can be served by a single a/c. If the flight terminates at ORD via IAH, the crew can disemabark at ORD.
hi moin,

if this was pre 9/11 then it would be fine but since it isnt the visa rules for transit in USA have changed.

I used to fly PK 723-24 every summer from KHI to YYZ via JFK where we had a 1.30 hr plane/crew change-cleanup and the YYZ bound pax were put in a transit lounge room not needing a visa.

However now, with your proposed routing KHI-MAN-ORD-IAH, pax bound for IAH would have to de-plane at ORD, clear customs, have their visas/documents checked and then again board the plane. This is a huge headache for pax especially Pakistanis who are always "on suspect" by U.S. authorities.

Your flight extension has been a tried formula by Egypt Air (JFK-LAX B 763ERs) and Gulf Air (JFK-IAH) and both airlines failed miserably in the mid 90s with such a routing and currently NZ (LAX-LHR), BR (SEA-EWR) and BA (ORD-IAH) are finding life very difficult flying such a route due to the inconvenience and extra operating costs that it incurs.
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umar744
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777340ER and 777240ER cannot nonstop to usa and canada

Post by umar744 »

salam
my friend captain pia 777 came to london for simulator and check and training other captain 777. i read 777240ER and 240LR handbook at my home when i borrowed it for two days. 777340ER full payload weight 237000kg but maximum take off is 351000kg. fuel 9000kg per hour. if fly from KHI to JFK about 15hours require 135000kg plus 14000kg divert. if payload 237000kg and fuel 149000kg would be total 386,000kg. sorry 351000kg divided 237000kg = 114000kg only 12hours. i flew EVA AIR 777300ER took off 349000kg from Bangkok to London landed 247000kg, fuel trip 102000kg for 11hours 40mins.
my friend flew 777240LR APBGY took off 341000kg from KHI karachi to Toronto fuel trip 118000kg and landed weight 223000kg last week ago. sorry 777240ER cannot fly nonstop to canada and usa because of full payload more than 250 passenger.
777240ER full fuel 137000kg
777240LR full fuel 145500kg
777340ER full fuel 145500kg
thank you for understand
best wishes
umar
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sadiqhassan
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Post by sadiqhassan »

behramjee wrote:
Moin wrote:Why not just have the ORD flight continue on to IAH or fly to ORD via IAH? that way both destinations can be served by a single a/c. If the flight terminates at ORD via IAH, the crew can disemabark at ORD.
hi moin,

if this was pre 9/11 then it would be fine but since it isnt the visa rules for transit in USA have changed.

I used to fly PK 723-24 every summer from KHI to YYZ via JFK where we had a 1.30 hr plane/crew change-cleanup and the YYZ bound pax were put in a transit lounge room not needing a visa.

However now, with your proposed routing KHI-MAN-ORD-IAH, pax bound for IAH would have to de-plane at ORD, clear customs, have their visas/documents checked and then again board the plane. This is a huge headache for pax especially Pakistanis who are always "on suspect" by U.S. authorities.

Your flight extension has been a tried formula by Egypt Air (JFK-LAX B 763ERs) and Gulf Air (JFK-IAH) and both airlines failed miserably in the mid 90s with such a routing and currently NZ (LAX-LHR), BR (SEA-EWR) and BA (ORD-IAH) are finding life very difficult flying such a route due to the inconvenience and extra operating costs that it incurs.
would flying through Canada make it easier?

LHE-YYZ-IAH-YYZ-LHE for example

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SalamPaks
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Post by SalamPaks »

sadiqhassan wrote:
behramjee wrote:
Moin wrote:would flying through Canada make it easier?

LHE-YYZ-IAH-YYZ-LHE for example

Cheers
Interesting thought. Then again, PIA could have marketed the Houston flight (and all other N.American bound services) for Manchester based passengers to fill up the seats.

However, I think the point is that IAH is just not pulling the loads needed to make it a viable run (Not that it couldn't be viable if it were marketed/code-shared correctly). That being the case, a bulked up service to another hub such as ORD, with connecting service to Houston makes more sense.

BTW, I am told that the decision to fly to IAH is due to some old timer, politically and militarily connected Houston based Pakistanis who really applied a lot of pressure on the Government for this flight.
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Post by Jacobin777 »

SalamPaks wrote:
sadiqhassan wrote:
behramjee wrote:
Moin wrote:would flying through Canada make it easier?

LHE-YYZ-IAH-YYZ-LHE for example

Cheers
Interesting thought. Then again, PIA could have marketed the Houston flight (and all other N.American bound services) for Manchester based passengers to fill up the seats.

However, I think the point is that IAH is just not pulling the loads needed to make it a viable run (Not that it couldn't be viable if it were marketed/code-shared correctly). That being the case, a bulked up service to another hub such as ORD, with connecting service to Houston makes more sense.

BTW, I am told that the decision to fly to IAH is due to some old timer, politically and militarily connected Houston based Pakistanis who really applied a lot of pressure on the Government for this flight.

that's TERRIBLE if its true...if they are losing money on that route, they should quit and focus on ORD and build there base there....before you know it, EK will show up and eat everyone's lunch.........I agree with some posts....have ORD, JFK, and LAX as PK's hubs and codeshare either with AA or UA, that will cover everywhere in the United States and make it easy for travelers......

sometimes I just don't understand PK management.... :?:
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sadiqhassan
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Post by sadiqhassan »

Jacobin777 wrote: sometimes I just don't understand PK management.... :?:
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PIAinORD
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Post by PIAinORD »

Jacobin777 wrote:that's TERRIBLE if its true...if they are losing money on that route, they should quit and focus on ORD and build there base there....before you know it, EK will show up and eat everyone's lunch.........I agree with some posts....have ORD, JFK, and LAX as PK's hubs and codeshare either with AA or UA, that will cover everywhere in the United States and make it easy for travelers......

sometimes I just don't understand PK management.... :?:
Welcome to HOP, I always read your stuff on a.net and brings a smile to my face (gotta love PIA on the international forums). But I totally agree, PIA can't be a world-class airline without making frequent flier agreements with other airlines. I think it'd be well suited to make an alliance with American Airlines and interline connections from JFK, ORD, and eventually LAX (still waiting for KHI-ISB-PVG-LAX)...
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Jacobin777
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Post by Jacobin777 »

PIAinORD wrote:
Jacobin777 wrote:that's TERRIBLE if its true...if they are losing money on that route, they should quit and focus on ORD and build there base there....before you know it, EK will show up and eat everyone's lunch.........I agree with some posts....have ORD, JFK, and LAX as PK's hubs and codeshare either with AA or UA, that will cover everywhere in the United States and make it easy for travelers......

sometimes I just don't understand PK management.... :?:
Welcome to HOP, I always read your stuff on a.net and brings a smile to my face (gotta love PIA on the international forums). But I totally agree, PIA can't be a world-class airline without making frequent flier agreements with other airlines. I think it'd be well suited to make an alliance with American Airlines and interline connections from JFK, ORD, and eventually LAX (still waiting for KHI-ISB-PVG-LAX)...
thanx for the welcome....as a Pakistani, I try to promote PK on A.net.. :D

not to mention, PK have improved vastly in the past 10 years......with a little bit more effort, they can become a top-rated carrier.....


I too am hoping for the KHI-ISB-PVG-LAX route....otherwise I might plan on flying them NRT-KHI sometime before ramdan..... :)
PIAinORD
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Post by PIAinORD »

Jacobin777 wrote:thanx for the welcome....as a Pakistani, I try to promote PK on A.net.. :D

not to mention, PK have improved vastly in the past 10 years......with a little bit more effort, they can become a top-rated carrier.....


I too am hoping for the KHI-ISB-PVG-LAX route....otherwise I might plan on flying them NRT-KHI sometime before ramdan..... :)
I've flown to Beijing on the NRT flight, if its still NRT-PEK-ISB-KHI, you might as well fly Air China if the offer a decent connection from NRT, as they fly from PEK-KHI direct.
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Jacobin777
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Post by Jacobin777 »

PIAinORD wrote:
Jacobin777 wrote:thanx for the welcome....as a Pakistani, I try to promote PK on A.net.. :D

not to mention, PK have improved vastly in the past 10 years......with a little bit more effort, they can become a top-rated carrier.....


I too am hoping for the KHI-ISB-PVG-LAX route....otherwise I might plan on flying them NRT-KHI sometime before ramdan..... :)
I've flown to Beijing on the NRT flight, if its still NRT-PEK-ISB-KHI, you might as well fly Air China if the offer a decent connection from NRT, as they fly from PEK-KHI direct.
unfortunately, its still the same flight route, but I'll still give my business to PK because....

1)being Pakistani airline-get better food...
2) giving PK my business....need to support them more..
3)PK's business class is cheap. :D
PIAinORD
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Post by PIAinORD »

Jacobin777 wrote:
PIAinORD wrote:
Jacobin777 wrote:thanx for the welcome....as a Pakistani, I try to promote PK on A.net.. :D

not to mention, PK have improved vastly in the past 10 years......with a little bit more effort, they can become a top-rated carrier.....


I too am hoping for the KHI-ISB-PVG-LAX route....otherwise I might plan on flying them NRT-KHI sometime before ramdan..... :)
I've flown to Beijing on the NRT flight, if its still NRT-PEK-ISB-KHI, you might as well fly Air China if the offer a decent connection from NRT, as they fly from PEK-KHI direct.
unfortunately, its still the same flight route, but I'll still give my business to PK because....

1)being Pakistani airline-get better food...
2) giving PK my business....need to support them more..
3)PK's business class is cheap. :D
Good reasons, but I also like to try out a different airline once in a while as well.