Suppose...........

[hjmemon]

Hi Everybody!
Well this is my first post at this forum.
Well my intensions are not to insult you people but suppose that you are in this situation.
You are about 17-18 years old. Going to a fine school/college. Get a good pocket money. Living at nice location in 1-2 Kanal homes(or more). Your father bringing in more than 1.5 lacs per month. All of a sudden, one day you come back from school/college to hear the news that your father is no more in the company he was working for. What happens next. Even more that your father is not being compansated or being given retirement benifits.
This would be the situation if B747 are being grounded and being sold off like those AB4s. I am a son a Flight Engineer in PIA on B747. There are more than 65 F/Es currently on 747s and about 20 sitting idle waiting for their turn on 747.

For the conditions of B747s told in the different posts, I would also like to say something about them.
The 2 747s that were sold recently were the best in the fleet of 747. There were a few problems in engines but that too was fault of improper maintainance from so called Engineering.
For the 74Ms and 743s, they too could be in good conditions, just Engineering is not taking care of them. This is all monopoly to ground 747s. The B4s were also decided to be sold off in similar way. PIA said that they were to heavy on maintainance. But is MNG and other airline that stupid to buy these kind of aircraft. If not then it means PIA is not taking care of their a/cs they don't want.
Just think about it and from next time onwards don't say straight forward that PIA should ground 747s.
Hashim

[Amaad Lone]

First of all Hashim, you cannot stop progress to save 85 jobs.

Airlines go bankrupt all the time (Pan Am, Swissair), and thousands of people lose their jobs, but most get re-adjusted in airlines that take thier place, so saving 85 flight engineer jobs cannot be a priority for an airline employing over 20,000 people.

The first time an aircraft flew without a flight engineer was a 767-200 in 1982, and two years later in 1984, Airbus introduced the two man cockpit on the A300-600. Airbus had also introduced a two man cockpit in 1982 on the A310-200.

So basically your father choose a career which was replaced by a machine 23 years ago.

As for the two 747s PIA just sold (AP-AYW & AP-BCL), well both were over 30 years old, so I don't know how much longer you wanted PIA to operate them.

Most "good" airlines retire their aircraft within 20 years of service, and the really top ones let go by 12 years.

Maybe your father should look at joining a new airline. Turkish charter airlines are operating large fleets of A300-B4s, a prime location of former PIA flight engineers to continue their careers for another few years.

[Moin]

Yes your father can easily join another airline. With his experience, I'm sure other airlines operating similar a/c will take him with open arms.

The AB4's and the 742's that were disposed off were very, very old a/c and everything has a design life. You cannot pressure maintenance to keep patching up and band aiding these a/c because by that time, their maintenance cost becomes prohibitive and it is simply not feasible to keep them in the fleet.

And from what I've heard one of the 742's AYW was sold to Evergreen Intl for parts. What does that tell you?

[piyya]

sorry to hear abut your personal experince.....but as you know, Technology is rapidly advancing as well as Airlines have to adopt with new state of state of art techlogy. In the history of PIA, they always adopt the newer version without hestitation. In economics larger interest are taken into account and some people always loose.

I just wish good luck to your father, hopefully he will find better chances.

[behramjee]

I am a son a Flight Engineer in PIA on B747. There are more than 65 F/Es currently on 747s and about 20 sitting idle waiting for their turn on 747.

This is sad to hear...but you should tell your father that he should look towards the future and invest his skills on being a B 777 Flight Engineer which will help him greatly and perhaps pay even more...the B 743s will be gone in 4-5 years time so now is the right time for ur dad to convert his skills on to the B 777s.

Hope it works out for you.

[Simulator Fan]

Hi, again like hjmemon has said I am also not here to insult anyone, but the fact is PIA has not hired F/E's since 1984. F/E's were given an option to convert to Pilot on PIA's EXPENCE had your father made the right decision then he might have lost his seniority in the chain but with would have secured his future. Now you can't play the blame game since PIA gave an option to most of the F/E's.

Also I will agree with Amaad Lone here that progress comes at a price, when we move ahead in life every body wants to stick together but life is not fair all the time. You win some you loose some. In the end we all have to look at the bigger picture, be it one person or 85, PIA moved on, on the road to progress and some people are left behind, well too bad. Tomorrow it could be us, or me, or could be you.

Again life doesn't end here, there are other airlines who are operating B4's your father can apply there, if he is good which I am sure he is, then there is no way anyone can stop him from progressing, and I hope that he gets a great job outside Pakistan which I know for a fact pays 3 times better then PIA, like MNG is paying a Capt. $9500 compared to PIA where paying them $2500 or something or close to like that.

Inshallah, when he gets the job outside you will be the first one to move there with him for your progress, and will not look back.

[Adnan Anwar]

The reason why PIA had retired 747 is the economics. As many have said earlier, the cost of operating a plane as it gets older and older rises.

PIA has 747-200 in its fleet that are as old 30 years. At this stage they reached their design life and even usefull life as a asset. Last time I flew a PIA 747-200 the inside was pathetic, the IFE was 30 years behind. The seats were worn and reclining on those seat would not work. The aircraft it self was begging for retirement by making weird noises.

PIA needs to stay at par when compared to the competition. Otherwise who is going to travel PIA when emirates or others can easliy gobble your market share.

[Babushka99]

Obsolescence - as an engineer, and any one involved with technology, obsolescence is the biggest fear. One needs to continue to keep learning and at times make dramatic shifts, otherwise, one will be made redundant at some point in time. That is what technology and economics does to you.

[inducedrag]

I want to know why did your dad not opt to be converted as a pilot which they were offered and some of them are now flying as F/O and some as Capt even one of them have left PIA and now flying as Capt in AIRBLUE

[AirBlue]

There is only one person from PIA gone to AirBlue that is my father...did a flt engineer also get inducted in ED?

[F.K]

hi hj memom. i also come as a pacifist with no intended provocation. assuming that your father is a seasoned 747 flight engineer who lets say got promoted to the 747s in the early 90s he should be drawing a salary package in excess of 3 lacks a month and if we were to retrace his steps a few years back before the rearrangement of the flight schedule , his salary must ve been verging at something like 4 lacks including other additive perquisites because if you re who i think you are as the name suggests ,then out of all people you shouldnt be the one poor mouthing here at this forum. no offence but your father has a 33 year service record in which he has minted money more then any pilot of his seniority and justice demands that people of his batch bow out to give way to the much needy fes who re awaiting their fluid fate . people from your fathers era have made money as office executives , on secondments depriving the last batch of their share of glory in any of these capacities. of all people you shouldnt be whining. your father has mounted a fortune for you people to feed off pretty comfortably ,not that the 747s are going any where till 20011 and 08 respectively but where you come from there should be no ecnomic worry. look below you and count your blessings.

the 747s are in perfect fettle flying problem free and will be kept in operation till another 6 years atleast after which they would be sold to mng . and a 747 classic fe is in shortage in the world market right now, so your dad with his experience will carry on way beyond seixty given that charter airlines use planes that are up to 30 year old an example of which is bcl, that is only if your dad isnt already over the age of 60 and is earning his livelihood thru means of early premeditated flimflammery. works alot with the upper rung of fes.

fe mutansir is now flying as acaptain for airble who was one of pias junior most fes. the option pia gave to fes in terms of conversion wud never have portended well for their earnings even if all 3 man planes had retired by year 2000 let alone 2011. other airlines offered professional fes credit hours with speedy promotions to higher equipments to correspond with their seniority and unmatched flight deck accumen as essentially a part of the conversion transition.

[behramjee]

he should be drawing a salary package in excess of 3 lacks a month and if we were to retrace his steps a few years back before the rearrangement of the flight schedule ,he his salary must ve been verging at something like 4 lacks including other additive perquisites because if you re who i think you are as the name suggests ,then out of all people you shouldnt be the one poor mouthing here at this forum. no offence but your father has a 33 year service record in which he has minted money more then any pilot of his seniority and justice demands that people of his batch bow out to give way to the much needy fes who re awaiting their fluid fate . people from your fathers era have made money as office executives , on secondments depriving the last batch of their share of glory in any of these capacities. of all people you shouldnt be whining.

hehehe...this is what is called "In your face"...I like it when F.K. doesnt mince her words especially in this case.

[Junaid]

Hi F.K

Did all the PIA FEs go to PAF college of engineering in Risalpur for B.S in aeronautical engineering? When did PIA induct the last batch of FEs?

[kalc]

hi
hjmemon welcome to this forum you might be surprised at the varied posting that you have generated. I have had the opportunity to fly with the A300 f/e an excellent bunch of professionals and was on the type when the redundancy package was negotiated with PIA .those that opted to join as f/o lost years of seniority and pay and joined at the bottom ,at the time its seemed foolish however today they are A310 f/o those that stayed on as f/e have sued PIA(PIA never wins a lawsuit) and are awaiting their B747 transition which seems unlikely as there is already a surplus on that type, to my knowledge the are drawing full pay.
please ignore F.K he/she does not come as "pacifist with no intended provocation".
unfortunately aviation being what it is has a history of technology replacing very specific occupations namely radio officers, navigators and now Flight engineers the impact of these job losses have little effect in the developed societies where there are good social nets our society is unable to cope with these changes positively.
like most people suggested there are a lot of contract jobs especially on the classics both cargo and pax with excellent remunerations things will turn out for the best

[raihans]

At last, i have decided to ask a question related to this topic which has been started by Mr. Hashim Jabbar Memon; subjected as Suppose...........

Is this topic still basis on Supposed Situation or have any reality that Mr. Memon has described? If this has happened with Mr. Memon's father, I am sad to read this all but as Amaad Lone said that progress cannot be stopped just for 85 jobs.

So Mr. Memon's father can avail opportunities in other airlines which are flying those machines specially the Turkish carriers.