Boeing Offers to Convert PIA Boeing 777-300ERs Order Into Boeing 787 Dreamliner

[zubairadil2016]

It seems that Boeing's attempt to convince Pakistan International Airlines to convert an order for 5 777-300ER has borne fruit and PIA will convert the order to 8 787-9s. This follows a letter (which was leaked) from BCA President Ray Conner to Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif offering to convert the 777 order to 787.

I don't have any information on timing for the final contract but it is understood that Boeing execs will fly on a company 737-700BBJ to Karachi from Chicago on Tuesday to finalize the deal with PIA whose board has approved the deal. There is a quid pro quo with this purchase as Boeing has agreed to set up a carbon fiber maintenance center in Pakistan. Again details are not yet available. It is unknown when 787-9 deliveries to PIA will begin.


http://nyc787.blogspot.my/2016/09/pakis ... lines.html

[whatever]

There is a quid pro quo with this purchase as Boeing has agreed to set up a carbon fiber maintenance center in Pakistan.

Overall great news, Inshallah we dont have major problems with the 787s as others have had.

If we do we will have a center to deal with it.

[Abdulrafeysiddiqui]

It's a great news. Hope this would help our Aviation industry in growing. Insha Allah

[Abdulrafeysiddiqui]

I don't have any information on timing for the final contract but it is understood that Boeing execs will fly on a company 737-700BBJ to Karachi from Chicago on Tuesday to finalize the deal with PIA whose board has approved the deal.

http://nyc787.blogspot.my/2016/09/pakis ... lines.html

Today or the next Tuesday?

[shamxa]

Matter reported at ch-aviation:

http://ch-aviation.com/portal/news/4916 ... ight-b787s

[Moin]

Now lets just hope that the planes come with GE and not RR engines.

[Abdulrafeysiddiqui]

Ofcourse it would be GE because one of the main reason is that the current engineers and technicians are trained for GE engines of 777s and training them for GE 787 engines would be lot easier and less financial burden than training them for RR engines which would require to teach the trainers from zero level as whole of the system would be changed in that case.

Hope PIA sticks with GE and if not, it would be a worst nightmare for the airline which is already under debts.

[Abbas Ali]

PIA and General Electric have enjoyed long & good business relationship.

Historically, PIA acquired brand new wide-body aircraft with General Electric engines . The aircraft were:

McDonnell Douglas DC-10-30
Boeing 747-200B Combi
Airbus A300B4-200
Airbus A310-300
&
Boeing 777

Abbas

[uzairali]

Ofcourse it would be GE because one of the main reason is that the current engineers and technicians are trained for GE engines of 777s and training them for GE 787 engines would be lot easier and less financial burden than training them for RR engines which would require to teach the trainers from zero level as whole of the system would be changed in that case.

Hope PIA sticks with GE and if not, it would be a worst nightmare for the airline which is already under debts.

Yet the a330s we are getting are not GE engines.

I hope in the that PIA chooses boeing 787-800 instead of 900, as we already have a330-300.

Based on wiki, b789 is 290 seats (28/262) and a333 is 300 (36/264). Meanwhile b788 242 (24/218), almost same as a332. Mind you, b787 business is 85" and a330 is 60" pitch.

So PIA should 100% go for b788. Also b788 is cheaper so PIA can grab more quantities rather than more space and less quantities.

8 b789 at list price is 2117 million USD
9 b788 at list price is 2021 million USD

Certainly an extra plane would be better in the case of PIA. Or heck, even 10 for 2240 million USD (123 million extra over b789). Of course PIA must have paid much less, but they should consider that getting a b788 is far more important as they are going to be already getting 3 a330s and that leaves a big gap between 160 seater a320 and 300~ seater a330.

[Abdulrafeysiddiqui]

Those A330 are on lease and in wet lease, correct me if I'm wrong, if something happens to the aircraft, God forbid, the owner company fixes the problem, not the leasing company. And on the other hand, I agree with Uzairali that having more quantity of aircraft is better than having more seats in 1 aircraft.

[Abbas Ali]

On September 8, PIA officials informed senate standing committee that eight new aircraft will be acquired for the airline.

Aircraft type not mentioned in news report. Probably eight Boeing 787s.

http://dailytimes.com.pk/pakistan/09-Se ... -to-quetta

Abbas

[raheel]

There is obviously a massive advantage of having a B787-9 over a B787-8.

The CASM of a B787-9 is considerably lower compared to a B788. There is only a marginal increase in flight cost when you have the extra seats empty. This can be easily recovered by having the flexibility to carry more passengers on certain routes/times.

There is more revenue to be earned by having a B787-9 flying with a few empty seats on certain flights, than by having a B787-8 and not being able to carry extra passengers in the critical peak times. This flexibility is attained by a marginal increase in cost, and is far more valuable than being under resourced.

The GE and RR debate is obviously nothing to discuss about. If the Export Import Bank is financing all of these airplanes, they are definitely going to agree to finance the GE engines.

As far as I am concerned, the maintenance of the leased A330s is not PIA's responsibility and it makes no difference to have those airplanes with GE or RR engines.

[uzairali]

Those A330 are on lease and in wet lease, correct me if I'm wrong, if something happens to the aircraft, God forbid, the owner company fixes the problem, not the leasing company. And on the other hand, I agree with Uzairali that having more quantity of aircraft is better than having more seats in 1 aircraft.

they're temporarily wet lease. but later they will be switched to dry lease on 6 years term i think.

[uzairali]

There is obviously a massive advantage of having a B787-9 over a B787-8.

The CASM of a B787-9 is considerably lower compared to a B788. There is only a marginal increase in flight cost when you have the extra seats empty. This can be easily recovered by having the flexibility to carry more passengers on certain routes/times.

There is more revenue to be earned by having a B787-9 flying with a few empty seats on certain flights, than by having a B787-8 and not being able to carry extra passengers in the critical peak times. This flexibility is attained by a marginal increase in cost, and is far more valuable than being under resourced.

The GE and RR debate is obviously nothing to discuss about. If the Export Import Bank is financing all of these airplanes, they are definitely going to agree to finance the GE engines.

As far as I am concerned, the maintenance of the leased A330s is not PIA's responsibility and it makes no difference to have those airplanes with GE or RR engines.

If that was the case then there wouldn't be near similar order size for both 8 and 9 series. But this exists because airlines needs more quantity than more seats. PIA already has more seats, it needs more planes now so i can do daily service. Aeroflot for example did 12 788 and 6 789. many other airlines have done the same thing.

People rather have daily b788 service from KHI to LHR than 3-5 times b789 a week. And CASM will be good if PIA didn't have b772, then it can go 100% b789. But now we going to have 11 planes (a333/b789) at 300 seats, 10 planes (b772) at 330 seats and meanwhile no planes between 160-300.

[raheel]

If that was the case then there wouldn't be near similar order size for both 8 and 9 series. But this exists because airlines needs more quantity than more seats. PIA already has more seats, it needs more planes now so i can do daily service. Aeroflot for example did 12 788 and 6 789. many other airlines have done the same thing.

People rather have daily b788 service from KHI to LHR than 3-5 times b789 a week. And CASM will be good if PIA didn't have b772, then it can go 100% b789. But now we going to have 11 planes (a333/b789) at 300 seats, 10 planes (b772) at 330 seats and meanwhile no planes between 160-300.

And the B772 was the backbone of the B777 order book for many years until the larger variant took over. I fail to see how you can justify this using the current orders, when many airlines have converted their orders from the B787-8 to the B787-9. This includes new buyers and airlines that already have B788s in their fleet. The order book for the B787 is filling up with -9 orders with those being almost twice to the -8 since 2010. The -8 is often referred to as a dead man walking, even Boeing does not even see it feasible enough to incorporate the technology used on the B787-9 onto it.

You can not justify buying a smaller aircraft to try to force an airline to increase frequencies. The B787-9 can do the same job as the B787-8 and even more because of the advanced aerodynamic improvements and the weight savings that give it a marginally higher trip cost compared to the B787-8, but a vast difference in revenue per flight. You can not discount the importance of having such flexibility.

If your point is to indicate that it would be cheaper to buy the B787-8, then apart from the terrible teens I fail to see Boeing offering that variant up for grabs. Boeing wants to increase production to 14 frames, and they rather do that with selling more 787-9. It has more in common with the next larger variant, it is what dominates the order book at the moment, and I am sure they are trying to upsell the -9 to anyone looking for the -8.

Btw the availability of a B772 in a fleet does not make the CASM of a B787 bad. It is a unit analysis of the cost of a flight on a seat basis. It is universally understood that the B787-9 provides a better CASM than the -8, or a B772.