Boeing Offers to Convert PIA Boeing 777-300ERs Order Into Boeing 787 Dreamliner

[raheel]

I don't mind pia getting f b789 but if they knew they were going to buy it why did they go for a333?

To fill the gap between delivery and to do something about the brand image. It seems like you do have an issue with both the B787-9 and the A330-300. As you have already previously indicated your affinity for the B788.

Your previous reasoning to get a B787-8 was that it is a waste of money to get an airplane that can do 50 more seats for almost the same trip cost.

There were other B772's that were very cheap prices but pia instead got a333 at expensive lease because they're new.

How does getting some dusty B777-200 help with the brand image?

Now we have to train pilots for a333 and do a lot more things when it would not only been cheaper to lease B772's but also other costs!

PIA is already training/has pilots for A320s. It is not a very 'difficult' or expensive thing to do the same for A330s.

They could've leased some 6 a321 instead for the same price as near new a333. And b789 will arrive in years time not very far. Not like we've all 3 a333 this month and we could have stuck with wet lease only instead of signing for dry lease as well for 6 years.

Try flying an A321 to London.

This does not help the brand image at all, which by the way is the major point behind getting these airplanes.

One B787 MIGHT arrive next year. You are not going to get all of them together in a big box.

The A330s could be part of a bigger expansion plan, which you can not do when you are waiting on aircraft deliveries.

You can see lease prices. We are probably paying $1 per month since very new aircraft (dry lease. Wet lease even more?) and a321 can be leased for as little as 100,000. Of course hard to find deal but let's stay in middle 200,000 we can have 5 a321 for the price of one a333. Or 15 a321 for the price is 3 a333. Even if these prices are wrong, pia could've definitely gotten 6 a321 for same lease price and use them for ME routes

PIA is trying to recapture market share in European markets. They do not need to be churning profits to achieve this.

A321s are a wonderful airplane but not something you can use to market an enhanced product. Which A321s available on the market today have flatbeds?

The ME routes are not what PIA wants to focus on. They have a fleeting presence in Europe, which is a bigger concern.

[Sherry3002]

^ =D> =D> =D> =D>

[uzairali]

To fill the gap between delivery and to do something about the brand image. It seems like you do have an issue with both the B787-9 and the A330-300. As you have already previously indicated your affinity for the B788.

Your previous reasoning to get a B787-8 was that it is a waste of money to get an airplane that can do 50 more seats for almost the same trip cost.

The gap would've been filled with b772-er or a wet lease.
You did not read my initial comment where I did mention b788 being cheaper per aircraft. There is also initial cost of plane and other things, not just trip cost. Otherwise all 500 b788 orders would be cancelled and switched to b789 and b788 being dropped or present used b788 being sold for dirt cheap as airlines buy b789 instead because airlines can fly 50 extra people for same trip cost!

Take a look at our neighbor. They bought 27 b788 and will be receiving deliveries until next year. Japanese airline also is receiving b788.

How does getting some dusty B777-200 help with the brand image?

How does getting b772 tarnish PIA brand image? Perhaps then we should not have leased b772 in recent times! And everyone in the world shouldn't get those dusty b772.
What matters is inside, PIA can pay for good seats/wifi and people will be happy. They do not know difference between a333 or b772. They only know how comfortable their seat is and media entertainment. And mind you, those b772 come with wider seats than a333 (17.8"), as PIA does 3-3-3 (18.5") instead of now standard 3-4-3 at 17".

Also PIA cannot match brand image of ME airlines in one or two years by getting new airplanes. What it can do meanwhile to keep fares low by going for cheap but good aircrafts and offer working seat entertainment, wifi, timely arrivals. People care about these things, not the age of airplane. Lufthansa and other airlines are still flying b737-300 today.

PIA is already training/has pilots for A320s. It is not a very 'difficult' or expensive thing to do the same for A330s.

Nothing in world is difficult. But we are spending money on wet leased aircraft to train our crew, paying extra every month. We are not just training 6 pilots, but rather 40+ pilots for the 3 aircrafts we will receive.

Try flying an A321 to London.

This does not help the brand image at all, which by the way is the major point behind getting these airplanes.

One B787 MIGHT arrive next year. You are not going to get all of them together in a big box.

The A330s could be part of a bigger expansion plan, which you can not do when you are waiting on aircraft deliveries.

Who said about flying a321 to london? We already have 10~ b777 that can fly there, as they were. With a321, they can instead fly to middle east route or domestic, so we don't have b777 flying domestic or middle east route. This way we can also increase frequency, having multiple a321 flights than a single b777 flight a day.

Not to mention a321 can be used for routes like Turkey or other short-medium haul routes.

If there is some sort of plan for expansion, we can do that with wet lease aircrafts, as we did in the past. We could also have leased b787 from international lease companies. Albiet more expensive, but at the end of the day, we would have a single series rather than multiple. This way we would also save money on procuring parts for two different aircrafts.

PIA is trying to recapture market share in European markets. They do not need to be churning profits to achieve this.
A321s are a wonderful airplane but not something you can use to market an enhanced product. Which A321s available on the market today have flatbeds?
The ME routes are not what PIA wants to focus on. They have a fleeting presence in Europe, which is a bigger concern.

Here you go, a321 with flatbeds: https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Ameri ... 21_new.php and it is not the only airline doing this. Qatar airways does a320 flat beds at 180 angle and on a321 160 angle. There are also a319 in flatbeds.

PIA is getting their b777 fitted with flatbeds in few months as well. And again, PIA does not need to fly a321 to London. I was talking about switching b777 from domestic and middle east to a321 (destinations that are usually served or were by a310).

[dreamliner99]

If PIA had a321's they would be perfect to use on flights to the Far East, I've flown with Turkish airlines many times and have endured 5 hour flights on an a321 on both business and economy class. Aircraft was comfortable and I didn't think it was too cramped.

[raheel]

The gap would've been filled with b772-er or a wet lease.
You did not read my initial comment where I did mention b788 being cheaper per aircraft. There is also initial cost of plane and other things, not just trip cost. Otherwise all 500 b788 orders would be cancelled and switched to b789 and b788 being dropped or present used b788 being sold for dirt cheap as airlines buy b789 instead because airlines can fly 50 extra people for same trip cost!

And my reasoning was that the added flexibility is worth the extra acquisition cost.

Take a look at our neighbor. They bought 27 b788 and will be receiving deliveries until next year. Japanese airline also is receiving b788.

What Japanese airlines, or Air India is doing is completely different to the requirements of PIA. You can not make a comparison based on that. But if you really must, then ANA has changed 15 of their B788 to B789.

How does getting b772 tarnish PIA brand image? Perhaps then we should not have leased b772 in recent times! And everyone in the world shouldn't get those dusty b772.

I did not even mention the word tarnish. It does not do anything to IMPROVE the brand image.

What matters is inside, PIA can pay for good seats/wifi and people will be happy. They do not know difference between a333 or b772. They only know how comfortable their seat is and media entertainment. And mind you, those b772 come with wider seats than a333 (17.8"), as PIA does 3-3-3 (18.5") instead of now standard 3-4-3 at 17".

I thought your entire point was for PIA to save money?

Also PIA cannot match brand image of ME airlines in one or two years by getting new airplanes.

PIA does not need to match the brand image of Middle Eastern Airlines. They compete on providing a non stop service.

What it can do meanwhile to keep fares low by going for cheap but good aircrafts and offer working seat entertainment, wifi, timely arrivals. People care about these things, not the age of airplane. Lufthansa and other airlines are still flying b737-300 today.

Fares have remained unchanged since the induction of the A330s. The A330s are good aircraft, offering working seat entertainment and is equipped with Wi-fi. I am not sure if it is in use though.

Nothing in world is difficult. But we are spending money on wet leased aircraft to train our crew, paying extra every month. We are not just training 6 pilots, but rather 40+ pilots for the 3 aircrafts we will receive.

I think I know how many pilots need to be trained. They would need to recruit additional pilots for the B777s or the B787s as well. Granted training would be cheaper for B777 as it can be done in-house, the same can be

If there is some sort of plan for expansion, we can do that with wet lease aircrafts, as we did in the past. We could also have leased b787 from international lease companies. Albiet more expensive, but at the end of the day, we would have a single series rather than multiple. This way we would also save money on procuring parts for two different aircrafts.

Maintenance costs of A330s are considerably lower than a composite aircraft like the B787. The availability of spare parts is immense, and you can get them for much cheaper.

Waiting for an additional three B787 will take over a year and a half - and that is not in anyway a good strategy when your main aim is to restructure an airline.

Here you go, a321 with flatbeds: https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Ameri ... 21_new.php and it is not the only airline doing this.

I don't think it was difficult to understand that such aircraft are not readily available to be inducted into PIA's fleet. As in no airline is willing to lease them out.

Otherwise I can assure you that I know about the existence of flat bed seats on narrow body aircraft.

PIA is getting their b777 fitted with flatbeds in few months as well. And again, PIA does not need to fly a321 to London. I was talking about switching b777 from domestic and middle east to a321 (destinations that are usually served or were by a310).

This 'few months' motto is just hearsay. It costs a lot of money to induct these new business class products, and a considerable amount of time to install that must be done within major maintenance checks.

You can put B777 on European routes (As they obviously already are), increase frequencies but that will have a marginal effect on PIA's brand image. Which i must restate is the major point behind the acquisitions of the A330s!!

[Abdulrafeysiddiqui]

raheel

[CoyBoy]

I thought PIA has flat beds in J, saw pics of it on one of their A310s trip report by member PIAandMe a decade ago.

[Sherry3002]

I thought PIA has flat beds in J, saw pics of it on one of their A310s trip report by member PIAandMe a decade ago.

Angled lie flat. Similar to Emirates and their 777s except slightly more sloped.

[uzairali]

And my reasoning was that the added flexibility is worth the extra acquisition cost.

And other airlines reasoning is, its worth getting more quantities than to take b789 because extra 50 seats will cost almost nothing.

What Japanese airlines, or Air India is doing is completely different to the requirements of PIA. You can not make a comparison based on that. But if you really must, then ANA has changed 15 of their B788 to B789.

Japanese and Air india are doing what?

I did not even mention the word tarnish. It does not do anything to IMPROVE the brand image.

Then you should not be saying "dusty." As mentioned, what's inside that counts, not outside. Airlines fly old airplanes.

I thought your entire point was for PIA to save money?

Do you think that fixing entertainment system and adding wifi is going to be more expensive than getting new aircrafts? Even if you get new aircrafts, as long as you have old aircrafts with broken system, it does not fix the image.

PIA does not need to match the brand image of Middle Eastern Airlines. They compete on providing a non stop service.

Then PIA foremost goal is to have more routes rather than improving brand image with half working and half not fully functioning aircrafts. To do that is to employ a321 aircrafts for ME/east europe etc routes to relieve the b777 for longer routes.

Fares have remained unchanged since the induction of the A330s. The A330s are good aircraft, offering working seat entertainment and is equipped with Wi-fi. I am not sure if it is in use though.

Unchanged fares mean PIA is shelling out more money for a330s than b772, hence cutting into it's revenue. Expensive lease = negative profit.

I think I know how many pilots need to be trained. They would need to recruit additional pilots for the B777s or the B787s as well. Granted training would be cheaper for B777 as it can be done in-house, the same can be

I think we won't be needing extra pilots for 2 b772s. We actually were supposed to get a b772 before but after 6 or so month the plan was dropped. So certainly we have surplus from that plan.

If there is some sort of plan for expansion, we can do that with wet lease aircrafts, as we did in the past. We could also have leased b787 from international lease companies. Albiet more expensive, but at the end of the day, we would have a single series rather than multiple. This way we would also save money on procuring parts for two different aircrafts.
Maintenance costs of A330s are considerably lower than a composite aircraft like the B787. The availability of spare parts is immense, and you can get them for much cheaper.

Waiting for an additional three B787 will take over a year and a half - and that is not in anyway a good strategy when your main aim is to restructure an airline.

Indeed maintenance cost is less for a330, being cheaper parts. This is how airbus, as their plane is not as efficient so they sell cheap etc. But what difference do you think will happen, say 11 b789 vs 8 b789 and 3 a333s? We will have to get extra engines, parts, training. One reason why 6 RR a310 were dropped and just keeping 6 GE active.

I don't think it was difficult to understand that such aircraft are not readily available to be inducted into PIA's fleet. As in no airline is willing to lease them out.

Otherwise I can assure you that I know about the existence of flat bed seats on narrow body aircraft.

You said none in market offer that. My response was, they do and if PIA wants, they can have the a320/a321 fitted with flat beds upon receiving or changing current planes.

This 'few months' motto is just hearsay. It costs a lot of money to induct these new business class products, and a considerable amount of time to install that must be done within major maintenance checks.

You can put B777 on European routes (As they obviously already are), increase frequencies but that will have a marginal effect on PIA's brand image. Which i must restate is the major point behind the acquisitions of the A330s!!

I saw few months because early 2017 was when b777 are going to start going for their checks. There was already bidding done and accepted for seat selection and who will be installing them.

And to conclude, passengers do not know difference between a330 or b777. What they know is inside. So pia can get "dusty" b772 and install flatbeds etc and people will think the airplane was made yesterday.

From some conversations I have overheard, people think emirates b773 are bigger airplane than PIA b773, because they have 10 seats per row rather than 9.

Now tell me, how are we going to start service to Istanbul? Moscow? Non stop to place in italy, northern africa etc? Or the pacific which is served by a310? These cities cannot fill 300 seats and neither can PIA fly to many cities non stop when it is lacking airplanes. We already have huge market in England and from conversation I've heard, people fly emirates for entertainment and PIA for baggage space. The flatbeds will only cater to business people, but to the ordaniary, they won't care if it has flight entertainment, as they know almost every pia airplane does, but its never working.

What PIA needs to do is increase frequency. People don't want to fly from KHI to ISB to LHR. They rather fly emirates then if it's going to be non stop or available only 2-3 times direct a week.

Sure it will cost very little for PIA to fly b789 instead of b788, but for a cash strapped airline which has loads of slots at airports needs more airplanes.

As an airline that does not have enough airplanes, to me, 10 b788 + 6 a321 (16) is better than 8 b789 and 3 a333 (11). 5 additional aircrafts mean almost 10 extra flights a day, assuming each does 5 hour each way on average. Once I have enough airplanes, then based on space I can upgrade seats with bigger planes b789, b787-10, b773 etc.

[Pakistan-1]

There is still nothing on paper just all words

[GEnx]

http://m.atwonline.com/airframes/ceo-pa ... order-787s
For the first time, we have official confirmation regarding the variant of b787 being considered by PIA. It's the -8. But, CEO has said that Boeing still needs to confirm to them if the -8 can do YYZ non-stop.

[owais usmani]

http://m.atwonline.com/airframes/ceo-pa ... order-787s
For the first time, we have official confirmation regarding the variant of b787 being considered by PIA. It's the -8. But, CEO has said that Boeing still needs to confirm to them if the -8 can do YYZ non-stop.

I think Air India uses its 788 to do Delhi-San Francisco non-stop. Somebody please confirm.

[uzairali]

http://m.atwonline.com/airframes/ceo-pa ... order-787s
For the first time, we have official confirmation regarding the variant of b787 being considered by PIA. It's the -8. But, CEO has said that Boeing still needs to confirm to them if the -8 can do YYZ non-stop.

Air canada does 788 for about 13 hour flight time. toronto to dubai is sometimes done by 788. Some air canada routes are 14.30 hours scheduled with 12000KM done on 788.


Perhaps pia can do daily 788 with a bit less passengers? Certainly it cannot fly 250 passengers with 50kg baggage allowance on such long routes.



Range at typical seating: 7,355 nmi (13,621 km) AND 7,635 nmi (14,140 km), b788 and b789

[uzairali]

http://m.atwonline.com/airframes/ceo-pa ... order-787s
For the first time, we have official confirmation regarding the variant of b787 being considered by PIA. It's the -8. But, CEO has said that Boeing still needs to confirm to them if the -8 can do YYZ non-stop.

I think Air India uses its 788 to do Delhi-San Francisco non-stop. Somebody please confirm.

it uses 777. the route is 17 hour long. not sure if it used to?

Air canada used to do vancouver to delhi on b789. vancouver and delhi are more far apart than ISB and YYZ.

[uzairali]

Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) is in negotiations with Boeing to switch out five Boeing 777s from a 2012 order for eight 787-8s, PIA CEO Bernd Hildenbrand confirmed to ATW.

“The 777s offer a bit too much capacity for our needs,” he said, adding negotiations are ongoing. “But Boeing has to confirm to us if the 787s are able to operate nonstop from Pakistan to Toronto.”

PIA’s 777-200LRs currently operate more than 14 hours on nonstop flights from Karachi and Lahore to Toronto.

Hildenbrand also told ATW the Pakistan flag carrier is phasing out its last Airbus A310s. “We are looking for additional A319s and A321s to streamline load factors, but the market for these aircraft is quite empty,” he said.

PIA’s domestic market share has increased from 40% to 56%. “There are 200 million people living in Pakistan—a huge potential. The operations of two other Pakistani carriers are not as sustainable compared to ours.”

In addition, PIA has to grow quickly to a certain size, so-called critical mass, to have a better position in the industry. “The plan is to operate about 60 aircraft in 2020; 100 aircraft by 2025,” he said. The airline currently operates 38 aircraft.

PIA, which recently launched premier service to London, has received “outstanding positive feedback from our passengers,” Hildebrand said. “Our image is improving constantly.”

On Aug. 14, PIA signed a wet-lease agreement with SriLankan Airlines for one A330, used primarily on a 6X-weekly premier service to London Heathrow. Later, the wet lease will be switched to a dry lease.

From October, a second A330 will join the fleet. “This will be a dry-lease arrangement, [which will enable us to] increase the number of flights to London to 10X-weekly, [and possibly add] services to Paris,” he told ATW.

PIA is considering using a third A330 to operate a 3X-weekly service to New York-JFK via Leipzig/Halle airport, Germany, instead of the current Manchester, UK.

“Manchester is a very expensive airport. Leipzig would give us the possibility of a much-needed comeback in Germany,” he said. The new route could be launched from Jan. 1, 2017, contingent on approval. PIA is considering hiring flight attendants in Germany.

Hildenbrand said airlines from Pakistan are not allowed to operate nonstop services to the US. US Transportation Security Administration (TSA) has implemented security measures at certain overseas airports, focusing especially on the safety of Pakistan’s airports.

“That means we have to land in another country on the way to the US, and do all safety and security checks again—for passengers and cargo.”

PIA is also considering services to Barcelona, Bangkok, and upgrading its network to Dubai and Saudi Arabia.


------

PIA wants to replace b77l with a330 for JFK route. b788 will replace YYZ. What will the two 77l be used for? The CEO said 77l offer too much capacity but on forums I hear that YYZ usually full? In that case, are we going to be selling the 77l? As only b773er are being delivered and 77l we did not use as frequent as some airlines like emirates, so maybe we will get good price for it.

Of course PIA may fly 250 passengers on b788 for less than 300 passengers on b77l.

I also think as CEO say market for used a321 and a319 is small so that it should place order for a319neo and a321neo. These aircrafts have 16-21 extra seats than previous model. And a321neo will be more comfortable than a321ceo on 5 hour routes, say barcelona, bangkok etc.