777-340ER Delivery flight timetable for JFK

[ConnieMan]

I have few question, these could be stupid ones too but they are:

What type of B773s are PIA getting, 300ERs or just 300s!, i have this impression as PIA getting 300ERs with GE 90-115Bs!. If i am not mistaking then howcome B777-200ERs weight and B777-300 are so close to each other?, 300s are much longer and with that havier airframes then any 200s compaired to.

Now if PIA is just getting B777-300 then i can see a problem by not flying non-stop JFK-KHI routeas they are equipped with GE90s only, but with 300ERs there should be no way that 300ERs can't do those flights full loads....

Plus why dose PIA always chose Manchester as being there route for delivery flights!, why can't they fly ferry stright from JFK-KHI and then start there service with revinue passengers from Karachi out wards!, don't tell me PIA is soo poor that they can't afford to ferry there B/N aircrafts stright to counrty prior to using them as in revinue service right off the back!....

[Jacobin777]

Choosing/keeping an aircraft in its fleet is not just a matter of range
The A340-600 is infamous with airlines for maintenance reasons, which is their primary reason for gettin rid of it. Maintenance costs will always be higher on a 4 engine aircraft than on a 2 engined one, AS WILL FUEL BURN ON SIMILAR SIZED AIRCRAFT.

Also you cannot simply calculate fuel required from SFC. Thats too simple and unrealistic a way of doing it. Ever countries CAA has different requirements/restrictions. CAA PAK does not give PIA 777's the same ETOPS rating as Boeing has managed to demonstrate and acheive with the FAA, resulting in longer routes for a PIA twin engine aircraft, than for other operators using ETOPS regs.

There are hundreds of detailed reasons that boil down to an operator choosing/rejecting an aircraft, including its own specific problems/preferences and has everything to do with politics as well.

Etihad for example is picking up a mixed fleet at the moment, which is a very poor strategy overall, but is the only option they have at the moment as thats all that is available, and they want to expand immediatly, before the middle eastern market is too dominated for anyone else to enter it. They cannot get an all Boeing fleet (which they prefer as they have taken up as many 7 options as they an get their hands on) so they have taken Airbus as well.

Lets not :
A. Try an figure out which airplane is better or worse, when everything in the aviation industry is such a compromise. With the T7 you are getting a more economical product, but paying for it through the nose. With the Airbus you are getting a less economical product, but since Airbus and the world have recognized that, you get it at a much cheaper price.

B. Decide how much fuel a PIA T7 requires as there is alot more to it than simply taking the Fuel on Board, and dividing it by fuel burn/SFC to calculate range.

Salaam..

Of course there are tens if not hundreds of decisions which go into a fleet decision...financing, m/x, spares, etc. all go into play...but one does have to go by some numbers to get some kind of "general" view..

..but some thing must be corrected which are flat out wrong (such as comparing the A346 against the B773ER for specific/comparable routes)!

ETOPS for PK routes to the United States are basically inconsequential...

...also, Boeing has aggressively been selling their 777's now..something which the previous Boeing management didn't allow...

The A346 for practical purposes is dead (even with the recent LH order)...

Jacobin777 wrote:

...why is CX basically dumping their A346 (a HKG-JFK route which they run with the A346) and purchasing the B773ER to run that route (a route which is 700nm SHORTER than JFK-KHI...

Also too, one of three Emirates non-stop daily to JFK is a 773ER.

http://boeing.com/commercial/777family/ ... oduct.html

http://boeing.com/commercial/777family/specs.html
Click on New York under the range charts

I used to use those links also, but I use "more real numbers"..routes which operaters fly I think is better representative of a plane capabilities...

salam hello all good happy smile
Emirate has three class First class and business and ecomony class how many seat pax and crew fly from Dubai to JFK

EK run a whopping 380 3-class DXB-JFK run with their B773ER's..the A346 couldn't even remotely come to that...that is why EK is getting their hands on so many 777's...its the most capable and flexible long haul plane in the world....

The A330 is a great plane too..and I think PK could have used it on some routes..but with the 787 being built, I think PK should add the 787-8 to its fleet...would be perfect for some of the long-thinner routes....

[AN]

Adnan Anwar: SFC stands for specific fuel consumption, and is a common way of measuring the amount of fuel used to produce a certain amount of power during a certain amount of time. It is a good measure to compare the efficiencies of aircraft.
For example TSFC, thrust specific fuel consumption is the amount of fuel burned per unit thrust per unit time or pounds of fuel/pound of thrust/hour

The unit of weight/thrust can vary

therefore an aircraft with an TSFC of 0.8 uses 0.8 pounds of fuel, to produce 1 pound of thrust for one hour. An aircraft with a TSFC of 0.5 uses only 0.5 pounds of fuel to produce (the same amount) 1 pound of thrust for 1 hour, and is therefore far more efficient.
I hope that clears things up a little.

CONNIEMAN: All PIA's 777 are either ER's or LR's, and are powered by GE90's. The 200ER comes with GE90-94B2's, the 300ER comes with GE90-115B's (the worlds most powerful gas turbine engine), and the 200LR comes with GE90-110's, which is the same engine as the 300ER, derated to 110,000 pounds of thrust.

PIA doesnt ALWAYS chose MAN as the delivery flight route. You clearly are not up to date on the 777 types/order/delivery history, or you would know that the first one came through london. The other thing you are not aware of is that the Aircraft will fly a REVENUE FLIGHT on its devliery flight. IT WILL NOT BE FLYING EMPTY. Hence, PIA will use it as an extra section picking up pax at new york and Manchester, which proves more lucrative, than simply picking up pax in new york. They can easily afford flying it back, and flying empty it will have no problems making it to KHI direct from Seattle. However why would they waste so much fuel and fly her empty all the way to karachi, when they can make money off the trip? It has nothign to do with being poor, its called economics and common sense. Lets put it simply, since it seems theres a problem understanding things here. If you were buying a car, and went to get it from the dealer, and had to pick a friend up on the way home, who lived next to the showroom, would you
a. drive home alone, then drive back to your friends house (next to the dealer where you just came from, and pick him up?
b. drive from the dealer, to your friends and then home with your friend, saving yourself a trip, time and money.
Everytime an aircraft takes off and lands, it uses one of its limited lifespan of cycles (a takeoff and landing is considered a cycle). Why should PIA waste a cycle flying an aircraft empty, not to mention fuel and crew resources etc, whent hey can carry passengers and MAKE MONEY OF IT.

I hope you understand.

I have a problem, and perhaps you an help me with that. I feel that you understand how to calculate the amount of fuel required for a JFK - KHI route, since you have stated that the 777-300ER can fly this route non stop, how about now you explain to me how you calculated this so I can understand and learn how to do it.

Jacobin 777:
Quick reminder, DUBAI is about 1.5 - 2 hours flight time CLOSER TO JFK than KHI. If the total flight time JFK-DXB is 11 hours, and the total flight time JFK-KHI is 12.5, then obviously, an aircraft with a range of 11 hours can do JFK-DXB, BUT NOT JFK - KHI.
So how can you say just because emirates does it with their 777-340ER's PIA CAN?
Why didnt you state British Airways? They also run LHR-JFK with their 777-200's. Or any other airline for that matter?
Talk specificlay about the KHI-JFK route, and not others, when you say why cant PIA fly it.

"ETOPS for PK routes to the United States are basically inconsequential... " ????? WHY?????

[Jacobin777]

Jacobin 777:
Quick reminder, DUBAI is about 1.5 - 2 hours flight time CLOSER TO JFK than KHI. If the total flight time JFK-DXB is 11 hours, and the total flight time JFK-KHI is 12.5, then obviously, an aircraft with a range of 11 hours can do JFK-DXB, BUT NOT JFK - KHI.
So how can you say just because emirates does it with their 777-340ER's PIA CAN?
Why didnt you state British Airways? They also run LHR-JFK with their 777-200's. Or any other airline for that matter?
Talk specificlay about the KHI-JFK route, and not others, when you say why cant PIA fly it.

"ETOPS for PK routes to the United States are basically inconsequential... " ????? WHY?????

..my comment about EK was in response to Umar744's comment/question about EK, 773ER and DXB-JFK..

also, there are very few 773ER operators right now, especially those whose route come close to PK's..add to the fact DXB has conditions which are close to KHI's........finally EK loads up their 77W's with almost full pax and cargo..so their 777's go out very heavy.....finally, EK pack their 777's like no other carriers (except for domestic Japanese 777's), so at the very least, I know PK wont have more pax on their 777's than EK....

DXB-JFK and KHI-JFK is one of the better 77W comparisons one can make right now.

BR flies TPE-LAX with a 773ER..but BR only flies it with 316 pax and their condition isn't close to that of DXB or KHI's.....so I dont' wont' even use them.

...regarding ETOPS...why should PK spend more money for longer ETOPS times? PK has had the basic 120 ETOPS for years (might be even 138)....the -200LR has 180/207 ETOPS with a possible 240 ETOPS (if the JAA/FAA/EASA agree)....PK doesn't fly over the Pacific yet and the cost for increasing the ETOPS range which the 777 allows would be completely useless..hence PK not using the 777 ETOPS to Boeings optimal numbers...

also, your comment about a flight doing 11 hours but not 12.5 is incorrect..if a flight does 11, it might be able to do 12.5, but if a flight can't do 11, it can't do 12.5

..and your comments about DXB being 1.4-2 hours in factually incorrect....it is between 45 minutes to an hour longer.

..and what does BA have to do with this argument?

[AN]

Its as simple as this

if an aircraft can fly 11 hours then thats its. It cannot fly 12 hours obviously.

if the 773er has a range of 11 hours, it cannot make a place that is 12 hours away, as is the difference between dxb and khi.

better?

[Jacobin777]

Its as simple as this

if an aircraft can fly 11 hours then thats its. It cannot fly 12 hours obviously.

if the 773er has a range of 11 hours, it cannot make a place that is 12 hours away, as is the difference between dxb and khi.

better?

Because that is not what you said....and I explained why...

..Also why nitpick? Why not disprove my other comments....

[AN]

one thing at a time.
heh

[CaptainFiaz]

Hey...... UMAR 744........but i agree with jaconbin .....i dont know where u get ur info from..
the 773ER which is going to be flown from jfk to man by capt nismullah and, capt shuja naqvi is going to to seattle to pick it up...and than capt mahboob shall take it after man to ISB is more than capable of going non stop with 95% load factor from jfk to ISB...np..... Jacobin is right, because the 773ER is what is going to be used by emirates to-....but i heard they are not getting the approval for the non stop yet....but anyways
when pia went to pick up their 2nd ER form seattle...the management team in pakistan forgot to book a slot at manchester for the plane.(LOL)..so the plane flew from SEA-ISB non stop....now ur going to say that aint possible....it is possible with full fuel and minimal cargo and PAX.....having said that i think the 773ER is more than capable to fly JFK-ISB 95% load non stop

[Jacobin777]

Hey...... UMAR 744........but i agree with jaconbin .....i dont know where u get ur info from..
the 773ER which is going to be flown from jfk to man by capt nismullah and, capt shuja naqvi is going to to seattle to pick it up...and than capt mahboob shall take it after man to ISB is more than capable of going non stop with 95% load factor from jfk to ISB...np..... Jacobin is right, because the 773ER is what is going to be used by emirates to-....but i heard they are not getting the approval for the non stop yet....but anyways
when pia went to pick up their 2nd ER form seattle...the management team in pakistan forgot to book a slot at manchester for the plane.(LOL)..so the plane flew from SEA-ISB non stop....now ur going to say that aint possible....it is possible with full fuel and minimal cargo and PAX.....having said that i think the 773ER is more than capable to fly JFK-ISB 95% load non stop

Thanks for the support...

Why am I not surprised PK didn't book a slot at MAN..lol..

At least they did book slots when they got the -200LR..as the MAN-Pakistan flights were revenue flights...

[CaptainFiaz]

Hey man NP......

YES its TRUE!!! allot of people dont know about how PIA forgot to book the slot.....but at the same time im not surprised...!!!!

Fiaz

[umar744]

hello
EVA AIR 773ER full payload 315pax and cargo 237000kg zero fuel and plus fuel 114000kg can fly up to 13hours plus 90mins divert. Eva Air fly only nonstop Bangkok-London 351000kg and Los Angeles to Taipei Taiwan. Taipei Taiwan to London cannot nonstop sorry
regards
umar

[FMC]

Can PIA afford taking delivery of the new B773ER? Considering the financial mess it is in as discussed on this forum, can any one educate me on the seat cost per kilometre for this plane? Pls. include the total operating cost plus the loan/lease installment charges.

FMC, how can the PIA be in a financial mess when it is acquiring brand new aeroplanes?

You are located so downunder that you can't hang on to this logic. After all it is the peoples money that PIA is allowed to squander.

[Jacobin777]

hello
EVA AIR 773ER full payload 315pax and cargo 237000kg zero fuel and plus fuel 114000kg can fly up to 13hours plus 90mins divert. Eva Air fly only nonstop Bangkok-London 351000kg and Los Angeles to Taipei Taiwan. Taipei Taiwan to London cannot nonstop sorry
regards
umar

Right, sure Umar744....then could you care to explain to me how EK fly their 773ER WITH full load 700nm MORE than TG's TPE-LHR run?

Could you care to explain how CX are going to fly their 773ER HKG-JFK which is 1,700 NAUTICAL miles more than TG's TPE-LHR route (and with strong head winds).

Could you care to explain how CX is going to fly a 16 hour flight (with ETOPS/divert)?

Could you care to explain why CX, which is an A346 operator and flies the A346 HKG-JFK right now, is getting rid of their A346 for the B773ER, especially given that the B773ER is MUCH more expensive than the A346?

I don't think CX is that dumb of an air carrier to be purchasing such an expensive plane if it wasn't capable of meeting their stringent mission requirements...

Please Umar, you are a nice person, but you SERIOUSLY need to get your information correct...

[Amaad Lone]

Where is PIA planning to use its first 777-340ER??

Somebody had mentioned Islamabad-London-Islamabad. Does this mean this aircraft will be Islamabad based?

That is only 4 weekly flights, not enough for a brandnew 777.

[Abbas Ali]

On December 18, AP-BHV departed from Paine Field, Everett, Washington, as 'BOEING 786' for Seattle-Tacoma International Airport where it will be delivered to PIA.

Abbas