Karachi Loses Frankfurt & Amsterdam

Amaad Lone · Post by **Amaad Lone** » Thu May 11, 2006 5:23 pm

The three weekly 777 flights to Frankfurt have been downgraded to A310s.

The weekly Islamabad-Istanbul-Frankfurt remains, but the twice a week PK765 and PK763 that use to orginate from Karachi and go to Frankfurt via Islamabad and the other via Amsterdam has now moved to Lahore.

The new routing is:

PK765 Lahore-Frankfurt-Amsterdam-Lahore

PK763 Lahore-Amsterdam-Frankfurt-Lahore

PK761 Islamabad-Istanbul-Frankfurt

The number of European flights orginating from Lahore has gone up a lot, with Paris-Rome also orginating from Lahore instead of Karachi.

Good for PIA, concentrating on where the traffic is orginating from.

I have actually flown on international PIA 747 flights where all but a handfull got off in Lahore, and the 747 flew almost empty to Karachi.

Now if the planning department sent the same aircraft to Karachi as a domestic flight with 400 passengers on board, the balance sheet would be in better shape.

Looks like that is now happening, with international flights orginating from a city other than Karachi.

Great chance for Air Blue to step in and try to fill in the vacum being left behind by PIA.

SaadSaeed · Post by **SaadSaeed** » Thu May 11, 2006 5:36 pm

^ Is it not possible to board an ongoing flight? For example in Amsterdam-Frankfurt-Lahore-Karachi, cant passengers from Lahore board it to Karachi as a domestic flight provided seats are available? Why fly it empty?

In other news, I will not be flying 777 this summer.

ammad · Post by **ammad** » Fri May 12, 2006 6:39 am

Yes you are right, actually PIA is very poor to compete with other airlines especially with EK, Karachi has lot of potential but all passengers are taken by those carriers who have fifth freedom from Karachi.
The reason of high ethinic market from LHE/ISB is just that EK and other carrier have little freedom compare to what they have in KHI.
In current scenario all European passengers have slipped from the hand of PIA, and I must say only Airblue seems to have some callibre to revert back some passengers from EK on European sectrors provided they get delivery of birds from Airbus and put full concentration on Europe market.

Charliedelta11 · Post by **Charliedelta11** » Fri May 12, 2006 9:31 am

actually..they do have a system of accomodating passengers from one aircraft onto an other if both are international flights coming from different locations but have a similar destination and both have low loads..
last year on my way back from PEK , except 30 passengers , the rest all got off in ISB , so they transferred us to a 777 which had arrived from JFK and too had low loads...so at times this does happen....but true...converting it to a domestic flight might help..but then you need to keep in mind other subtleties too..the aircraft will park at the international terminal , where will the domestic pax go then ? plus...seperating baggage for domestic and international pax will be a further burden,...unless they come up with a way to manage all these prblems..it will benefit PIA..

Amaad Lone · Post by **Amaad Lone** » Fri May 12, 2006 10:54 am

I am not saying that an international flight becomes domestic flight from Lahore or Islamabad.

I am saying that certain flights should terminate at Lahore or Islamabd, and if the aircraft needs to go back to Karachi (due to the engineering base), then it should go there as a domestic flight.

For example when PK717 arrives in Lahore from New York, it should terminate and disembark all passengers. Two hours later a new flight PK315 should take a new load of passengers, and depart for Karachi, hopefully with a load of more than 10%.

Because most of the international flights that proceed on to Karachi, from either Lahore or Islamabad are carrying very few passengers. This against a full revenue domestic flight.

The Karachi flights should not have a stopover in Lahore or Islamabad.

Saleem Hatoum · Post by **Saleem Hatoum** » Fri May 12, 2006 2:53 pm

SteveUK · Post by **SteveUK** » Fri May 12, 2006 5:46 pm

I have flown in and out of both Karachi and Islamabad on numerous occasions with PIA from London, and the flights I used were always jam-packed full. It's a great pity that within a comparatively short space of time Karachi has been reduced to a minor PIA hub, and Emirates/Qatar/Etihad/Gulf fly in and out with apparent impunity - lifting huge volumes of passengers travelling to Europe and the States. Emirates already has 2 services from Dubai to New York and will introduce a third this year; Qatar are just waiting for their brand new A340-600s and they will launch services to New York as well. I believe Etihad have also bought some ultra long range planes, but can't remember which ones? Emirates and Qatar seem to get additional landing rights at LHR as and when they want them, but PIA seem to struggle securing slots there. I don't know what the answer is, but what I do know is that Karachi is one of the World's most populous Cities and it gets an apalling level of direct flights for a City of this size.

smarties · Post by **smarties** » Fri May 12, 2006 6:34 pm

Karachi is indeed one of the most heavily populated cities in the world. However, you should also remember that a huge majority cannot afford to fly. There is hardly any middle class in Karachi/Pakistan, unlike India.

SteveUK · Post by **SteveUK** » Fri May 12, 2006 11:33 pm

Yes indeed point taken about the fact that most ordinary people cannot afford to fly. But I've been in the travel business, dealing with corporate travellers rather than leisure travellers, for 25 years and I regularly (sometimes too regularly!) see airline reps - unsurprisingly including the Emirates rep. And I know that Karachi is one of their best performing stations, so somebody must be travelling - and in sufficient numbers that should give a signal to PIA that they are losing an awful lot of business. Problem now I suppose is that, even if PIA introduced a load of direct flights from KHI to European destinations, would that in itself be sufficient to switch people back to PIA from the Gulf-region carriers?

PK77W · Post by **PK77W** » Fri May 12, 2006 11:51 pm

I think in todays aviation industry, passengers have more freedom to choose, if KHI doesnt remain a Hub for PIA, EK or Qatar Airways or any other middle east airline are not to be blamed, it is the passengers who have decided to fly with them and not with the PIA.....

PIA is still having hard time getting passengers from KHI when all of the major european and american airlines have already gone and it has to compete with only few middle eastern airlines, which were not existent 20 years ago .... and it was PIA which helped Emirates and also leased them its Airbus ....

I think if Air blue with its limited resources can compete in domestic and Dubai sector ... why not PIA can compete with it other airlines.... ??? I am pretty sure if Lahore and Islamabad are given a chance to have 2 or 3 daily flights from EK or Qatar... PIA wont have chance to fill their planes from those cities as well....EK is successful even though DXB has open sky policy...

As much as I want PIA to be successful, but they have to compete in fair way ... where they are not protected, otherwise it proves that people have lost their faith in it ....

just my 2 cents

B777240ER · Post by **B777240ER** » Sat May 13, 2006 7:46 am

SteveUK wrote:PIA seem to struggle securing slots there

The UK-PAK bilateral only permits 10 weekly flights from/to LHR or LGW.

The rest of UK is open sky to Pak.

PIA should build up a hub where all other airlines are restricted...

smarties · Post by **smarties** » Sat May 13, 2006 9:40 am

Emirates is the kind of airline that would run a flight even if there were 10 passengers on board. I have been on DXB-KHI-DXB sector numerous times and found that they are not even half full. I would say that Australian destinations are their best performing for them.

Emirates is also very expensive to KHI from LHR compared with other airlines. EK to KHI is Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£480, and PK/GF are Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£360. They use to provide competitive fares before, but now they just seem so be concentrating on the Australian market.

I'm sure PIA would do well if they have more frequencies to Europe, becasue people like nothing more than a direct flight. PIA would have to market well though as some people are hesitant to travel PIA as in the 90's the airline went downhill and was notorious for its long delays. They have come along way since then and have a better fleet and much better record of on time flights.

PK77W · Post by **PK77W** » Sat May 13, 2006 11:31 am

I agree EK is becoming more expensive and they are concentrating more on Australian and NZ routes. EK although have more flights from KHI, when last year I enquired about the fares for KHI to DXB, EK was quite expensive than PIA and Air Blue, so I opted to fly with Air Blue, and found their service better than EK.

I have flown many times from AKL to LHR and KHI by EK, and their planes got full from Melbourne and Brisbane. EK is also offering competitive fares from AKL to SYD, KHI and LHR. BUt i dont see any viability for PIA to fly to Syd or Mel, as they are not too many Pakistanis living as compared with UK, USA or Canada. Only perhaps if they offer non stop flights from Lahore to down under and very cheap fares might help as they will be competing with EK, CX, TG, GF, and Singapore airlines...

sadiqhassan · Post by **sadiqhassan** » Sat May 13, 2006 2:16 pm

EK needs to keep its DXB-KHI flights, because otherwise it will loose the control on the market. However, some airlines (eg Swiss) are now changing their codeshare agreements to PIA. When flying on a Swiss Z or J class fare, you must fly KHI-DXB on PK, not EK because they were charging too much!

behramjee · Post by **behramjee** » Sun May 14, 2006 10:04 pm

The number of European flights orginating from Lahore has gone up a lot, with Paris-Rome also orginating from Lahore instead of Karachi. Good for PIA, concentrating on where the traffic is orginating from.

indeed

Now if the planning department sent the same aircraft to Karachi as a domestic flight with 400 passengers on board, the balance sheet would be in better shape.

indeed

Great chance for Air Blue to step in and try to fill in the vacum being left behind by PIA.

no need to...the only EU route that ED needs to look at from KHI is to the UK thats it! They will lose $$$ flying to mainland EU cities from KHI.

Yes you are right, actually PIA is very poor to compete with other airlines especially with EK, Karachi has lot of potential but all passengers are taken by those carriers who have fifth freedom from Karachi.

spot on correct...but the correct term is 6th FREEDOM traffic and not 5th freedom

This is laughable and amazing that a national airline is getting sucked into tight corner on their own turf. Besides PIA, CAA is another impotent organization with no hindsight but rather blind they are. PIA should be using KHI for all its major international flights with feeder service to other destinations within couple of hours of arrival at KHI. PIA has left KHI because they don't have a plan or the spin to fight any airline.

It is indeed a very sad story...same case with Biman Bangladesh. The very fact that PIA refused to improve itself image wise and product wise in the mid 1990s has resulted in its dismal loss of market share from KHI which has been scooped up by EK, GF, TG, QR and CX from KHI.

There are tons of european airports which offer 5th freedom.
ORD-BHX-KHI-DPS (Penang or Phuket) (PIA might have to use B-773/A-346) on this route)
ARN-FCO-KHI-BKK/DPS (Penang or Phuket)
ATL-ARN-KHI-BKK/DPS (Penang or Phuket)
CDG-FCO-KHI-BKK (My goodness they can take a boat load of people)
HKG-BKK (Least said about this route better it is)
Italy & Scandinavia countries are gold mines for east and west travel
PIA can fly to Buenos Aires & Sao Paulo from GVA/ZRH. Any Pakistanis on this flight will be a plus but the rest it will always be full.

If I was in charge of PIA, I am sorry to say that I would never use any of your above mentioned routes for the destinations you have mentioned. All the route structures that you mentioned above would be BIG LOSS MAKING ROUTES for PIA. Please dont take it offensively...Im being very honest here...none of your routes would even break even for PIA if ever flown

KHI needs a brand new airport with only one goal in focus: Beat Dubai. Dubai can be beaten in the same fashion as ATL beat ORD.

No it doesnt need a new airport. What it needs is its internal infrastructure upgraded with more modern facilities. KHI will never become like DXB airport because it doesnt have the financial backing nor the initiative from local govt nor the pax numbers / flights that DXB have to justify what you recommend.

EK needs to keep its DXB-KHI flights, because otherwise it will loose the control on the market. However, some airlines (eg Swiss) are now changing their codeshare agreements to PIA. When flying on a Swiss Z or J class fare, you must fly KHI-DXB on PK, not EK because they were charging too much!

EK are not for a long time reducing their KHI 4 daily frequencies. EK is more expensive for interlining because they have earned that right to be due to them offering better frequencies which results in better flexibility + good inflight product. Airlines that still interline from PAK to DXB on EK are LH, KQ, ET, BA, KLM, AF and VS. A lot of these airlines too have interline agreements with PIA and Airblue on the PAK-UAE sector and as a result charge lower fares if those airlines are chosen for travel between PAK and DXB.

The most popular flight for the EU airlines for interline purposes on the KHI-DXB-KHI route was the late night EK flight which departed KHI at 2200 and the one that flew back at 0130 from DXB. Even today if you are a normal pax flying on those 2 flights, you pay a RS 1-2000 premium since that flight is loaded with 6th freedom pax flying onwards via DXB to Europe and North America on either EK or another airline.