What is the problem with Saudi airlines pilots?

Osman · Post by **Osman** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:03 am

I have been living near the Lahore Airport for the last 15 years. Although the terminal has been shifted but the runway remains the same.

Being an aviation enthusiast, I have regularly watched aircraft flying around low while landing and take off. Most of the aircraft belonged to PIA and now many other airlines have started operations.

I have noticed something strange about the Saudi Aircraft. They used to operate A300 and B747-100s and now they operate B747-300 and B777s.

It is understandable that they are heavy and operate almost full loads from Lahore but the pilots seem to be either inexperienced or are too over confident while they take their planes in the air. The huge Saudi widebodies fly around very low , make strange maneuvers, make tight turns and it seems as they are in some sort of emergency.

For example, I recently saw a Saudi Jumbo making a screaming low level pass over the city. One week ago I saw a Saudi triple seven again levelling at a low altitude while it was still in the path of take off climb! EVen my brother who has least interest in airplanes pointed out this thing about the Saudi airliners.

On the other hand, I have never seen PIA aircraft making such dare moves in the air. They seem to be piloted maturely . The PIA Jumbos and Triple Sevens make straight climbs, level off and then make cautious turns according to the vectors given to them.

The Saudi pilots really give me a scare at times. My Uncle who happened to travel on a classic Saudi Jumbo last week was jolted by the sudden dives the plane made over the Arabian Sea because of air pockets. OK the pilots can be forgiven for that but what about the following incidents?

Saudi pilots landed a fully laden Jumbo at an Indian airbase in 1999. It had to be stripped of all seats and was loaded with minimum fuel to lift off again by a Boeing Company pilot named " Captain Jam Joom". It was learned that the pilot charged Saudia heavily for the risk he had taken!

Saudi Jumbo collided with a Kazakh IL-76 over Indian airspace killing 376 or more! Again it was pilot error not to mention Saudi pilot's over confidence that lead to the death of 301 passengers ( mostly Pakistani Hajjis) on a L1011 Tristar in Riyadh in 1980!

Something is really scary about these pilots or is it just a figment of my imagination? I hope some of you share my views!

AP-BGL · Post by **AP-BGL** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:01 pm

I cant say anything about the scary moves in the air but as far as the low altitude is concerned when the airplane is taking-off, it might be because they follow the same phenomenon of 'Late Rotation' as being followed by PIA in MAN.

Valkyrie · Post by **Valkyrie** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:19 pm

Well it depends what clearence has been given by the ATC for them to level off, get hold of an air scanner and tune on the tower's frequency. For landing if you are near the runway threshold, just take a look at the VASI or PAPI. It will give you an indication if they are out of the glideslope.

AirBlue · Post by **AirBlue** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:18 pm

The leveling off at a low altitude here at YYZ is because of noise abatement procedures. A/c's are requested to take off and level at 2000ft. agl and reduce the thrust so that the community is not disturbed....after leaving the residential area they are allowed to increase speed and reach their final altitudes....If an airline official doesnt follow the rules, there is a fine charged to them.....but in lahore, who would care? you still have more ground noise compared to the air....the traffic at LHE airport is less.....but why would a Saudi pilot use such a rule at lahore ?

smarties · Post by **smarties** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:39 pm

They should make the runways bigger so they do not need to apply reverse thrust on landing. I remember landing at Karachi in a 747 and no reverse thrust was applied, it was really weird as i was waiting for a loud reverse thrust, but nothing! Has anyone else experienced a landing without reverse thrust?

AirBlue · Post by **AirBlue** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:02 pm

how can u really land without the use of reverse thrust ? that is the only way to stop your airplane

PK786 · Post by **PK786** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:43 pm

Yes, I flew from London to New York JFK with BA and when we landed the pilot didn't use reverse thrust at all. I was quite impressed.

Nasir · Post by **Nasir** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:08 pm

AirBlue wrote:how can u really land without the use of reverse thrust ? that is the only way to stop your airplane

Simple breaks come into play alongwith air-spped breaks located on top of the wings. Typically thrustless landings are done when tempratures are cool enough to not overheat the breaks.

bravo45 · Post by **bravo45** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 5:55 am

The runway 36R-18L at Lahore is longer than the Karachi runway (I am pretty sure about that), so the runway length is no problem at all.
Depending on the situation an a/c can land without reverse thrust, I remember one such landing at Karachi in A300 while I was in the cockpit, the Captain came below glide slope and I was wondering why but then noticed that he used almost the entire runway without applying reverse thrust. I got busy in other conversations to ask him why he didn't use em. Since this flight was within days of the A300 crash in the US that followed right after 9-11 and there were concerns over the A300 reverse thrust, that may have been the reason.

Anyway about the things you bring up, it depends on the individual situation, what I do know is if a captain deviates from the instructions and does something as unusual and dangerous as you sound, there are consequences, the ATC can infact does take action. No such activity goes unnoticed in controlled airspace which has radar coverage.
Secondly no offence, but there is no term as "air pocket". I read it was a 1970s film that coined the phrase.

bravo45 · Post by **bravo45** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:21 am

Actually the dictionary does state it, so I guess it is a word, though I think it must have been added to the language. Anyway there is no such aviation term.

AbdulAziz · Post by **AbdulAziz** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:03 am

Asslam u alikum

I have flown with SV more than 50 times in my life until this time. I haven't notice some thing like this until now but one I saw SV B743 at LHE with very low altitude on resedence area. In Saudia or other places I don't remember I saw some thing like that.

For the reverse thrust.. I was flying Saudia B777 from Dubai to Riyadh on 5-1-06 and at RUH we landed on 15L. I was waiting for reverse thrust sound but the captin just opened the cover of reverse thrust but there was no sound at all then same thing happened when I flew back from Riyadh to Dubai on SV B777.

Osman , If ur house is near the airport can u photograph them and show us here??

A.Aziz

Adnaan786 · Post by **Adnaan786** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:08 am

Saudi Jumbo collided with a Kazakh IL-76 over Indian airspace killing 376 or more! Again it was pilot error not to mention Saudi pilot's over confidence that lead to the death of 301 passengers ( mostly Pakistani Hajjis) on a L1011 Tristar in Riyadh in 1980!

That was the fault of the IL-76 crew actually. ATC asked them to climb to a new level, but due to mis-communication between the IL-76 crew, they stayed at the same level. The pilots didn't speak english, so they were being co-ordinated by the flight engineer who was incharge of radio comms. The flight engineer told the pilots to climb, but they didn't understand him, and the flight engineer didn't recognise the importance of the situation and was also busy doing other things. The pilots never climbed and when the engineer realised they hadn't climbed he shouted "we need to climb, there's another aircraft......" but at that point it was too late. At the time when ATC told them to climb, they had about 5 mins or so to react. They didn't react until the very last moment.

smarties · Post by **smarties** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:09 am

I guess landing without reverse thrust is more common than we think.

Adnaan786 · Post by **Adnaan786** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:12 am

It is very rare to land without reverse thrust, and it's not recommended.

xuhair · Post by **xuhair** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:12 am

Salaam;
I am not new on this fourm, but I guess this is my first post ever.
Talking about the Engine Reversal, it all depends upon the total weight the aircraft has at the time of landing. In reduced weight conditions, reversals are not required (esp on a 747) and the halting the aircraft can be controlled easily by the Air Brakes ( as the total wing span of a 747 is a much greater compared to any other) this enhances the life of the engines and thus uses most of the runway to deaccelarate. This is the same concept when pilots use the full runway during take-off without using the full power of the engines.

Regards,
Zuhair