PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Discuss issues and news related to PIA, Pakistani airlines and Pakistan's civil & military aviation.
arshad.altaf
Registered Member
Posts: 718
Joined: Fri Dec 25, 2015 8:24 am

Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by arshad.altaf »

"BEA provided assistance for the accident to the ATR 42-500 registered AP-BHO, operated by Pakistan International Airlines, which occurred on 7 December at Havelian in Pakistan. The collision with the ground, in descent, led to the destruction of the aeroplane and the death of all of the occupants. In coordination with the Investigator-in-Charge from the PSIB, the BEA’s Pakistani counterpart, and with the French Embassy, a visit by the manufacturer ATR’s advisers was organized. The BEA considered that the security conditions were not adequate to send a go-team during the on-site phase. With the agreement of the Investigator-in-Charge, the flight recorders were brought to France for their content to be read out and analyzed by the BEA. The BEA and ATR subsequently participated in various meetings organised in Islamabad by the PSIB, with support provided by the French Embassy."

Thank you Abbas for updating. Lets see if that report ever comes out and whether it is a fair assessment of events by PISB that occurred on that unfortunate day of 7th December.
User avatar
Abbas Ali
Site Admin
Posts: 52155
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:52 pm
Location: Pakistan

Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

Karachi, 10 June 2020: The heaviest pieces of PIA’s unfortunate A320 aircraft has been removed from the crash site, PIA spokesman said on Wednesday.

Image
Wing of crashed PIA Airbus A320 removed from the roof of a house. Note aircraft registration AP-BLD painted on the wing. Probably port side wing section.

He said that debris has been removed from the crash site including heavy wreckage of A320 aircraft and transferred to a safe and secure hanger at Karachi Airport for further examination by investigation team analyzing the events of PK8303 of 22 May 2020.

PIA spokesman said that most part of the wreckage was removed last week however the Engine and Wing were proving to be most difficult to remove. The engine of the aircraft was on the third storey of a house while the wing had intruded between the floors inside the house. A team of PIA structural engineers had analyzed the site and had concluded that heavy lift cranes would have to be used in tandem because removing them without those would collapse the houses. However because of the narrow streets and electric wires, it was extremely difficult for heavy lift tall boom cranes and machinery to move in for the extraction work. Hence the concrete roofs were cut in slabs and safely removed piece by piece before both the wing and the engine were pulled out. The wing of the plane was 17 Meter long and 5 meter wide.

Image
An engine of crashed PIA Airbus A320 removed from the roof of a house. Probably engine number one.

The operation was conducted by PIA Flight Safety team and structural engineers while assisted by engineers of Pakistan Army's Mechanized Battalion, Pakistan Air Force and Port Qasim Authority technical team and support equipment. The support of 42nd wing of Sindh Rangers were also instrumental in totally cordoning off the area, keeping it clear from the onlookers and ensuring the site is clear of any danger to human life. The cranes were provided by Port Qasim Authority while heavy lift equipment came from Pakistan Army and Air Force.

Image
Landing gear of crashed PIA Airbus A320 removed from the roof of a house.

Minister of Aviation Ghulam Sarwar Khan has thanked the Port Qasim Authority, Armed Forces of Pakistan, Sindh Rangers 42nd Wing and others who untiringly worked on first the search and rescue operation and after that on the removal of debris and collection of critical components from the site. He specially thanked Federal Minister for Maritime Affairs, Syed Ali Zaidi, Lt. General Humayun Corps Commander Karachi, Chairman Port Qasim Authority Admiral Hassan Nasir Shah, DG Rangers Sindh Maj Gen Omer Ahmed Bukhari and AOC Southern Command Air Vice Marshal Abbas Ghuman.-

Source: PIA Press Release
Dil Dil Pakistan... Jaan Jaan Pakistan

See you at:
Image
User avatar
jam2k94
Registered Member
Posts: 491
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:55 pm
Location: Kuwait

Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by jam2k94 »

Zulfiqar wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:19 am
arshad.altaf wrote: Wed Jun 10, 2020 6:54 am As the findings of investigation are leaning towards pilot error, PIA/CAA and the government now taking measures to make this look like a transparent accident investigation. Why Aerei da Trasporto Regionale and BEA were not invited for the 2016 Havelian crash? Pity and sordid affairs of PIA and CAA.
I guess we just have to move on and pray that the conclusions and recommendations reached now are transparent and fair. Rightly or wrongly, there will be people who will find errors in method whatever the conclusions are. Moreover, the curse of rumours and conspiracy theories in Pakistan does not help to clarify anything.
That time CEO and Govt was not the same. So can't blame the current authorities.
Jamshed Ahmad
Inam855
Registered Member
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat May 23, 2020 4:13 pm

Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Inam855 »

A310 wrote: Fri Jun 05, 2020 11:12 am I reckon you have some difficulty in comprehending my post. I am questioning the merit on which the notice was served to PIA. If the ATC communicates something in an advisory role, there is no non-compliance if the PIC doesn’t go ahead with that. Yes he should have turned left, no questions about that but it was his decision. There are so many instances when ATC gives headings which cannot be taken due to weather in the path of that particular heading. Pilots reject that too. Is that non-compliance as well?

Can you stop being so outrageous? Never wished that for him. Just called him out for his hypocrisy as far as Shaheen 320 captains are concerned. But I think i stepped on a nerve there, cute. Moving on, please highlight when did my ‘gang of thugs’ (do have a name for them though in case you weren’t aware) stop the recruitment? It was that girl who went to court and the court stopped that hiring. She’s a cadet pilot now. But ever since that, it is this military induced excuse of a CEO or thug if I may who stopped the hiring. He hates the word ‘cadet pilot’. So much for hiring pilots, eh? As they say, apne girebaan mein jhaanko pehle. 35 hours a day? Assuming you mean 35 hours a month. No thats not the case. Get your facts right. Its 75 hours and any pilot who doesn’t fly a minimum of 50 hours without any reason is penalized. What allocations and trainings? Should those training pilots start giving birth to pilots?? They have to make do with what they have. If A320 has a shortage of captains, should they cease ATR operations to cater 320 ops? I did voice that in official capacity. Not on HOP just to please you. But who’s there to listen? Now let me come to losses as well. How many of the direct entry ATR captains passed the training? Less than 20 percent. Keep your PAF mentality limited to PAF. You’re an utter failure if you try to come to commercial airlines. Isn’t the scheduling already computerised? They acquired AIMS software and manage it though that. And it’s been like that for over 15 years. Don’t really understand what made you day that. The schedulers have all data available to them to manage operations. You can’t really come up with an excuse for them not moving their arses. Forget MEL. On so many occasions the crew call them up to cockpit to rectify a snag. And the first thing they do is check the MEL list. Why? Why don’t they do their job? Try to rectify the problem and then check that. They just say “Sir abhi jahaaz le jayen wapis ain ge tou agli flight se pehle theek kar den ge”. And this has happened so so so many times. I am talking about pre departure snags. It’s not like I’ll tell the tower about my right seat not being able to adjust height. It is these little things apart from major snags that could come up at anytime during the flight. I’m talking about the culture across the engineering department. If you want to turn a deaf ear to the other side of the story then there’s no point in arguing with you. You’re more than welcome to blame it all on PALPA given they pay the media to do that as well. No one’s gonna mind you doing that as well.
You know very well what you wrote, your post was edited by Abbas sahib. This kind of whataboutery and life of denial wont get you anywhere except in a burning crater at the end of a runway. I don't disagree that this notice was a desperate CYA by the CAA. In fact, it casts more doubt on the factors behind the true cause, if anything.

If ATC gives unachievable headings or there are deviations due to any reason, the term "Pilot-in-Command" and "Sole and final responsibility" have been there since day one. Yet you and your friends seem to miss out on that when its time to own up to your actions.

Fair point on NL captains, and I understand the sentiment of losing out on seniority. If anything the lack of adherence to SOPs and training standards at NL should be sufficient to make anyone shudder. Then again, what goes around comes around doesn't it?

Mighty fine of you to resort to the gareban defence, from sky god to street thug in a minute, eh? Thankfully, I didn't have daddy buy a seat for me in PIA without having a CPL issued. I cleaned toilets and drove buses to pay for flying lessons, passed with an actual examiner, performed every required maneuver to actual standards, built my own career, and whatever I am, I did without any sifarish. The culture of nepotism which you gloss over needs to stop. You are not entitled to a seat in PIA because your old man managed to make it in. Sooner or later, this charade will end - you cant have your cake and eat it too. The very fact that you continue to ignore the influence on recruitment, lack of adhering to SOPs, politics, and face-saving prevailing among your peers, should be sufficient to show you your own reality, but I guess the comforts of binging on tax-payer money for life don't go away easy.I request you to answer a SINGLE one of my questions on palpa in my previous posts which you have been conveniently ignoring for so long. You're honestly going to pretend that 30-35 hours a month wasn't the norm for years on the ATR? What an embarrassment. Either you're not a pilot, or you're no where close to PIA as you pretend. PIA is infact a place where pilots give birth to pilots, or don't you know of your colleagues who got recruited without having CPL issued? What about the ones who didn't even have a Pakistani id card issued? The assessment of a random internet stranger with pent up anger issues really has a massive impact on my ability to make a career in the airlines, thank you. "Forget MEL" Like you forget every SOP? No thanks.

Like I've been saying from the start, every one from the CEO to the sweeper needs to be answerable for their actions. And that includes all of your lot who have been gliding above the law for years.

Interesting to note the ATC exchange in this video
0.23 "We are comfortable. We can make it" This sentence says more than the first. It's intent is to convince someone they can successfully put the airplane on the ground. It's an attempt to reassure either ATC or the FO.
0:28 "We are comfortable now...." That says it all - despite prior transmission, crew wasn't really comfortable prior.
0:39 Then you get into the disagreement between ATC and crew that they were actually established on ILS 25L.
Wasilk
Registered Member
Posts: 27
Joined: Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:37 pm

Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Wasilk »

You know very well what you wrote, your post was edited by Abbas sahib. This kind of whataboutery and life of denial wont get you anywhere except in a burning crater at the end of a runway. I don't disagree that this notice was a desperate CYA by the CAA. In fact, it casts more doubt on the factors behind the true cause, if anything.

If ATC gives unachievable headings or there are deviations due to any reason, the term "Pilot-in-Command" and "Sole and final responsibility" have been there since day one. Yet you and your friends seem to miss out on that when its time to own up to your actions.

Fair point on NL captains, and I understand the sentiment of losing out on seniority. If anything the lack of adherence to SOPs and training standards at NL should be sufficient to make anyone shudder. Then again, what goes around comes around doesn't it?

Mighty fine of you to resort to the gareban defence, from sky god to street thug in a minute, eh? Thankfully, I didn't have daddy buy a seat for me in PIA without having a CPL issued. I cleaned toilets and drove buses to pay for flying lessons, passed with an actual examiner, performed every required maneuver to actual standards, built my own career, and whatever I am, I did without any sifarish. The culture of nepotism which you gloss over needs to stop. You are not entitled to a seat in PIA because your old man managed to make it in. Sooner or later, this charade will end - you cant have your cake and eat it too. The very fact that you continue to ignore the influence on recruitment, lack of adhering to SOPs, politics, and face-saving prevailing among your peers, should be sufficient to show you your own reality, but I guess the comforts of binging on tax-payer money for life don't go away easy.I request you to answer a SINGLE one of my questions on palpa in my previous posts which you have been conveniently ignoring for so long. You're honestly going to pretend that 30-35 hours a month wasn't the norm for years on the ATR? What an embarrassment. Either you're not a pilot, or you're no where close to PIA as you pretend. PIA is infact a place where pilots give birth to pilots, or don't you know of your colleagues who got recruited without having CPL issued? What about the ones who didn't even have a Pakistani id card issued? The assessment of a random internet stranger with pent up anger issues really has a massive impact on my ability to make a career in the airlines, thank you. "Forget MEL" Like you forget every SOP? No thanks.

Like I've been saying from the start, every one from the CEO to the sweeper needs to be answerable for their actions. And that includes all of your lot who have been gliding above the law for years.

Interesting to note the ATC exchange in this video
0.23 "We are comfortable. We can make it" This sentence says more than the first. It's intent is to convince someone they can successfully put the airplane on the ground. It's an attempt to reassure either ATC or the FO.
0:28 "We are comfortable now...." That says it all - despite prior transmission, crew wasn't really comfortable prior.
0:39 Then you get into the disagreement between ATC and crew that they were actually established on ILS 25L.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

Thank you for being truly apt! I agree with every aspect of what you’ve articulated. Indeed, the denial and distortion of reality to fit one’s unchecked biases and dogmatism is immensely uncanny. I’m in utter disbelief as to how even after yet another utterly tragic occurrence, there is no desire but to shove the heads in the sand thereby enabling the very circumstances that caused such a tragedy in the first place. Of course, heads in the sand is far more convenient than accountability, self-reflection and a true desire to genuinely turn things around. Despicable.
salhayat
Registered Member
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2020 12:29 pm

Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by salhayat »

The aviation minister pointed out to check degrees and cpl of pilots , but in my opinion more important is to dig out files of pilots about their performances in simulators , how many have cleared or failed and yet flying. It’s a known fact that one of the first officers in havelian crash was not competent , had under performed in his simulators and demoted back to Atr , did any one investigate this after the crash. Rumours are that one of the pilots switched off the operating or functional engine. Why isn’t the comprehensive report out yet. Some lobby is definitely behind and all know who.
A310
Registered Member
Posts: 470
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 3:03 am

Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by A310 »

Inam855 wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 1:10 am
You know very well what you wrote, your post was edited by Abbas sahib. This kind of whataboutery and life of denial wont get you anywhere except in a burning crater at the end of a runway. I don't disagree that this notice was a desperate CYA by the CAA. In fact, it casts more doubt on the factors behind the true cause, if anything.

If ATC gives unachievable headings or there are deviations due to any reason, the term "Pilot-in-Command" and "Sole and final responsibility" have been there since day one. Yet you and your friends seem to miss out on that when its time to own up to your actions.

Fair point on NL captains, and I understand the sentiment of losing out on seniority. If anything the lack of adherence to SOPs and training standards at NL should be sufficient to make anyone shudder. Then again, what goes around comes around doesn't it?

Mighty fine of you to resort to the gareban defence, from sky god to street thug in a minute, eh? Thankfully, I didn't have daddy buy a seat for me in PIA without having a CPL issued. I cleaned toilets and drove buses to pay for flying lessons, passed with an actual examiner, performed every required maneuver to actual standards, built my own career, and whatever I am, I did without any sifarish. The culture of nepotism which you gloss over needs to stop. You are not entitled to a seat in PIA because your old man managed to make it in. Sooner or later, this charade will end - you cant have your cake and eat it too. The very fact that you continue to ignore the influence on recruitment, lack of adhering to SOPs, politics, and face-saving prevailing among your peers, should be sufficient to show you your own reality, but I guess the comforts of binging on tax-payer money for life don't go away easy.I request you to answer a SINGLE one of my questions on palpa in my previous posts which you have been conveniently ignoring for so long. You're honestly going to pretend that 30-35 hours a month wasn't the norm for years on the ATR? What an embarrassment. Either you're not a pilot, or you're no where close to PIA as you pretend. PIA is infact a place where pilots give birth to pilots, or don't you know of your colleagues who got recruited without having CPL issued? What about the ones who didn't even have a Pakistani id card issued? The assessment of a random internet stranger with pent up anger issues really has a massive impact on my ability to make a career in the airlines, thank you. "Forget MEL" Like you forget every SOP? No thanks.

Like I've been saying from the start, every one from the CEO to the sweeper needs to be answerable for their actions. And that includes all of your lot who have been gliding above the law for years.

Interesting to note the ATC exchange in this video
0.23 "We are comfortable. We can make it" This sentence says more than the first. It's intent is to convince someone they can successfully put the airplane on the ground. It's an attempt to reassure either ATC or the FO.
0:28 "We are comfortable now...." That says it all - despite prior transmission, crew wasn't really comfortable prior.
0:39 Then you get into the disagreement between ATC and crew that they were actually established on ILS 25L.
Right right. I stand by what I wrote which was edited by Abbas. That was a correspondence with SM so thats none of your business. Just labelled him a hypocrite while calling him out regarding NL issue. Didn’t know thats also a synonym for wishing someone death.

Try taking a deep breath and read twice before replying to my post. Jumping on the keyboard right away isn’t the best of habits. When I wrote that deviation/heading thing, i wrote that it is the PIC’s choice. That means its also his responsibility. No two ways about it. I could only cringe at that circular by CAA. Thank you for being decent enough to partially agreeing with me on that.

I can only laugh at you for calling me out for the girebaan reference. While totally ignoring what I wrote, you just hate me for using that reference against the (un)holy armed forces. Nice of you to not have your daddy buy a seat? Do you want me to sympathise with you on being underprivileged? There are millions of others too. Sorry not sorry. Don’t know to what point of mine you replied with this sorry story of yours. If anything, you have my best wishes. There definitely are cases of nepotism in the past when pilots were recruited, but you’re generalising it without coming up with their percentage or any other kind of data. Undermines your own claim and looks more like a rant because maybe you couldn’t get a good enough sifarish to get in? I am not ignoring that recruitment, lack of SOPS adherence and politics point. In fact, you didn’t tell me how PALPA influenced recruitment and stopped it? Easier to blame lol. Lets come to SOPs. There have been violations. Lots of them. A problem with culture existing within the pilot fraternity. It needs to be addressed. But let me give you a reference. When that Gilgit incident occurred, initially I defended the Capt. because people like SM just an hour into the incident started saying she approached an airfield like Gilgit on an ATR at a speed in excess of 300 kts. I mean I do know what hot and high but then I’m just amazed at these speculations. However, I only defended her till the point it was all clear and she admitted her fault. Mind you it wasn’t PALPA because of which she hasn’t yet been laid off, but the concerned pilots own contacts in the armed forces. I mean I don’t want to even talk about that because I’ve made my point regarding GIL incident. The pilot of that Panjgur(I’m not exactly sure if that was Panjgur or not) incident is also grounded till now. There are a few other incidents which you might not know about because they weren’t covered on media but the involved pilots remain grounded till now. Apart from directly firing them, a few punishments are also in place. These include non-international rosters, loss of seniority and demotion to P2 etc. There is accountability but yes culture needs to be improved as well.

Lets come to the 35 hours point. Apologies for not understanding what you meant. I thought you meant their salary structure is such that they get a payment of 35 guaranteed hours. I replied with 75 to that. You are right, in fact ATR First Officers in 2011-14 era flew between 15-25 hours a month. Thats terrible. But is that PALPA or Management’s fault? There was no requirement of pilots on other equipments thats why they were stuck on ATRs. How is the hiring of these excess pilots their fault? Those back to back cadet pilots hiring and advertisements were politically motivated. I’ll get back to you again on this so that you know how many of them were serving pilots sons. So that you don’t coming up with an arbitrary figure again.
Giving birth to pilots was a sarcastic response to current shortage. Perhaps you twisted my words and made me the evil. CPL/ID card issues might be there, I don’t know of these cases but I believe you and will get info on this as well. You don’t know if I have anger issues or not. But a few oldies like you don’t deserve my respect if you blatantly lie or come up with pathetic allegations.

“Forget MEL”. You literally quoted two of my words and took them at face value. How frustrated are you? I don’t even owe you an explanation on that. Please go and read that again, hun.

Agree with the accountability part. Everyone including ‘us’. The final ATC part is YOUR own personal speculation. You might be right you might now. It does look more and more like a pilot error by the day. I’m just waiting for the investigation report that matters. Not really keen on paying heed to you getting into the psyche of the deceased pilots voice. I want an accountability across the board. Unfortunately what Is going to happen is that the report will revolve around the last 30 minutes of the crash only. And pilots will be blamed. All departments should be investigated so that organisational and cultural flaws are identified.

I genuinely must have skipped your PALPA post. I’ve skimmed through it but I will read it again and promptly respond. I didn’t ignore it.
TAILWIND
Registered Member
Posts: 2067
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:52 am

Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by TAILWIND »

We had very knowledgeable discussion on this tragedy in this thread, many technical, operational and organisational subjects have been highlighted. A number of forum members have contributed. Indeed on many issues, there can be differences in opinions, interpretations and/or conclusions, yet we all are touched by this tragedy and and want the aviation industry of Pakistan to be safe, professional and profitable.
However I am a little concerned with the dialogue amongst respectable members. Earnestly request if we could stick to the topic and avoid making personal remarks, cast doubts on others' motives and keep the decency and manners in our language.
Airborne
Registered Member
Posts: 630
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 3:57 am

Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Airborne »

TAILWIND wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:58 pm We had very knowledgeable discussion on this tragedy in this thread, many technical, operational and organisational subjects have been highlighted. A number of forum members have contributed. Indeed on many issues, there can be differences in opinions, interpretations and/or conclusions, yet we all are touched by this tragedy and and want the aviation industry of Pakistan to be safe, professional and profitable.
However I am a little concerned with the dialogue amongst respectable members. Earnestly request if we could stick to the topic and avoid making personal remarks, cast doubts on others' motives and keep the decency and manners in our language.
Very rightly said Tailwind. I feel sorry for Abbas who tries his best to keep this forum straight and focused, yet we have so called aviation enthusiasts here who think they know far more than pilots at helm. Then there are pilots who couldn’t make in to PIA and they leave no stone unturned criticizing PIA for their personal vendetta. I kind of agree what A310 has been saying. Some members think they have the God damn upmost eligibility to criticize PIA pilots. God help us!!!
SM
Registered Member
Posts: 266
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:49 pm

Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by SM »

Airborne wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:03 pm
TAILWIND wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 3:58 pm We had very knowledgeable discussion on this tragedy in this thread, many technical, operational and organisational subjects have been highlighted. A number of forum members have contributed. Indeed on many issues, there can be differences in opinions, interpretations and/or conclusions, yet we all are touched by this tragedy and and want the aviation industry of Pakistan to be safe, professional and profitable.
However I am a little concerned with the dialogue amongst respectable members. Earnestly request if we could stick to the topic and avoid making personal remarks, cast doubts on others' motives and keep the decency and manners in our language.
Very rightly said Tailwind. I feel sorry for Abbas who tries his best to keep this forum straight and focused, yet we have so called aviation enthusiasts here who think they know far more than pilots at helm. Then there are pilots who couldn’t make in to PIA and they leave no stone unturned criticizing PIA for their personal vendetta. I kind of agree what A310 has been saying. Members like SM and others who think they have the God damn upmost eligibility to criticize PIA pilots keeps me discouraged to participate here anymore. God help us!!!
I have only criticized pilots when I feel they have messed up. This is my point of view and everyone here has the right to respectfully disagree. Whether I criticize or join a few others in sweeping things under the rug using terms like "shahaddat", "sub chalta hai", "unka time tha", "controller ki ghalti hai", etc.; the fact remains that in the past 30 years, most airline accidents and serious aviation incidents in Pakistan were either primarily caused by pilot error or could have been avoided had the cockpit crew handled the situation per procedures.

I know many people here either work for PIA or have very deep, emotional ties with existing or past PIA crew or management. In either case, I understand and expect that my views on serious accidents such as those involving AP-BBF, AP-BCP, AP-BJB, AP-BKC, AP-BHO x 2, AP-BHP, AP-BLD, etc. will not be taken objectively so I will not comment on them going forward. I also don't want to engage in conversations involving below the belt vocabulary such as "gareban", "sky god", "street thug", "(un)holy armed forces", etc.

Over the past two decades, I have only commented here because I love aviation and want it to prosper in Pakistan. I must confess that my emotional ties with PIA are limited. I haven't flown domestically on any commercial airliner in Pakistan or on an AP registered aircraft outside Pakistan in over a decade. I also don't see a need to engage in PIA's internal politics like salaries, promotion criteria, flight allowances etc. as from my standpoint, those are conversations with which I have nothing to do; and even if that was the case, speaking purely from a business standpoint, PIA is a dead, irrecoverable enterprise at this point.

I also do not professionally belong to aviation. In fact, in my line of business, I have earned unparalleled respect - which is in addition to - building a several million dollar business from zero to almost 300 employees with presence across three continents. I share this because while reflecting on this thread today, I have realized that my presence on HOP is unnecessary and as such, I wish everyone well and express sincere apologies to anyone who may have been offended by my posts.

Abbas, I have been looking for a way to delete my account on HOP but couldn't find a way to do so. I'd really appreciate if you could delete it for me. Thank you for all the great work!
SM
Inam855
Registered Member
Posts: 79
Joined: Sat May 23, 2020 4:13 pm

Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Inam855 »

A310 wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 2:13 pm When that Gilgit incident occurred, initially I defended the Capt. because people like SM just an hour into the incident started saying she approached an airfield like Gilgit on an ATR at a speed in excess of 300 kts. I mean I do know what hot and high but then I’m just amazed at these speculations.
@A310: Your 300 knot point kind of becomes moot when you consider the actual speed she was at. Would you like to share it with the forum? Re the pilot hiring - again would you like to tell me who was the MD at that time who sanctioned the hirings? Was it....dare I say...a pilot?
Airborne wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:03 pm Very rightly said Tailwind. I feel sorry for Abbas who tries his best to keep this forum straight and focused, yet we have so called aviation enthusiasts here who think they know far more than pilots at helm. Then there are pilots who couldn’t make in to PIA and they leave no stone unturned criticizing PIA for their personal vendetta. I kind of agree what A310 has been saying. Some members think they have the God damn upmost eligibility to criticize PIA pilots. God help us!!!
Airborne, I didn't realize anyone here needed your permission to express their views or to call out blatant whataboutery. I dont understand why you feel pilots are beyond question, or why the holier than thou, mentality prevails and you defend it. Indeed Abbas sahib must not have known what running an internet forum entails, we should all pack up and leave and you can then enjoy the website on its own. As a public servant living and thriving on taxpayer money, from the pockets of the farmer whose child dies because of no vaccines to the richest person in the land, you are answerable for every single one of your actions on duty. If a bureaucrat can be imprisoned for a 10 lac rupee contract, then the one who singlehandedly caused a diversion and dumped fuel worth millions should at least answer for his actions instead of being promoted to instructor. If you do not like the public peering in to your performance, then you should not be in a public enterprise. I'm sure many airlines would love to hire "world bestest pilots" like you. We all know the track record of your CURRENT captains and instructors who come here to the middle east and are told "thank you, no need to reapply" after a 30 min session in the sim. Magnificent achievements indeed, I am sure you and the entire PIA pilots have a lot to be proud of, so indulge me, please:

i. How many safety seminars/events/publications has the pilot community done in the past ten years?

ii. Out of all of the pilots recruited in PIA in the last ten years, how many have no blood relatives working in PIA?

iii. How transparent would you say PIA's recruitment process (from sweeper to pilot) is? Has your community done anything to fix that?

iv. Is it true that PALPA has an agreement with management whereby if two persons, one the child of an ordinary person having higher marks in the recruitment process, and one the child of a palpa member having lower marks - the palpa member's child will be chosen?

v. Is it true that multiple failures are not practised in SIM? Why is that? Is it inconceivable for two or more systems to fail on PIA's airplanes?

vi. What internal directives were issued after the Gilgit & Panjgur incident re SOPs?

vii. Would it be appropriate for highly professional pilots to say "Everyone say he was fasting, Palpa is politically powerful, we will not let the truth come out in this case"?

viii. Do you believe it is "good moral character" for one of your colleagues to be attempting written ATP examinations in Karachi while physically being in Toronto?

ix. Is there any internal SOP at PIA for stable approaches? If someone violates that, what action is taken?

x. Has there been any presser or effort by the holy pilot's community to outline members violating SOPs or professional standards, from garbage cleaners hiding drugs in the aircraft to engineers violating SOPs to unprofessional ATCs to cabin crew hauling undeclared goods.

xi. Why do you & your colleagues feel you are untouchable, above the law? Why do you get defensive when people ask you about systematic issues or performance and training related questions? Why are you unable to support any of what you say with evidence, or prove me wrong, and instead insist everyone bow their heads down to you in respect? What drives these delusions of grandeur?

xii. How many hull losses has Pakistan seen since its formation? How many of those were attributed to pilot error? Let's go with your argument for a second and say all those reports were wrong - in the past 10 years, have you, or anyone in your community taken initiatives to ensure transparency, an independent safety investigation board, judicial oversight or ANY other mechanism? Just one?

I leave you with a question on two of the finest examples of airmanship in the world: first the Feb 2020 incident of radio silence; second the return of a fully laden & fueled 777 over an MEL item which both the highly qualified, skilled, blessed, pious & perfect geniuses sitting at the pointy end chose not to look up. No doubt you must very proud of your colleagues actions, but please do enlighten all of the readers to details about both?

While I understand & acknowledge no one else here besides you and your pure & perfect friends is entitled to their opinions - how dare we question pilots of PIA, the pinnacles of professionalism - I hope you and your colleagues wouldnt mind answering any ONE of my questions for the readers benefit.

"They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim." - Gustave Le Bon


@Tailwind @A310 & @Airborne thank you for your insightful contributions, wish you a long & successful career.

@SM, I fully agree - time to move on until the next one.

Adieu blue skies & tailwinds everyone!
Last edited by Inam855 on Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:25 am, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
Abbas Ali
Site Admin
Posts: 52155
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 6:52 pm
Location: Pakistan

Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

Image

On the instructions of a Senate Standing Committee, a Joint Investigation Team (JIT) has been formed for PK8303 crash investigation. The JIT will be headed by Additional Director FIA Immigration Lahore Imran Yaqoob.

Abbas
Dil Dil Pakistan... Jaan Jaan Pakistan

See you at:
Image
TAILWIND
Registered Member
Posts: 2067
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:52 am

Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by TAILWIND »

Abbas Ali wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:34 pm
On the instructions of a Senate Standing Committee, a Joint Investigation Team (JIT) has been formed for PK8303 crash investigation. The JIT will be headed by Additional Director FIA Immigration Lahore Imran Yaqoob.

Abbas
Main objective of any aircraft accident investigation is to (technically) investigate the events, find causal and contributory factors to recommend measures and steps to avoid such events in future. To achieve this objective, preamble of ICAO Annex 13 declares above as the 'sole' aim of such investigations and not to apportion blame.
With this background in mind, the investigation team primarily includes experts in ac design, operation, maintenance, human factors and any other experts for a particular area if so required. Once this technical investigation is complete, and if gross negligence or criminal actions are suspected governments and regulators may take a legal action against those involved. However to begin with, this remains a pure, unbiased and objective technical exercise.
I donot understand, what value this JIT and Addl Dir Imm from FIA would bring into this.
pk363
Registered Member
Posts: 777
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:07 am
Location: Dubai, UAE

Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by pk363 »

TAILWIND wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:17 pm
Abbas Ali wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:34 pm
On the instructions of a Senate Standing Committee, a Joint Investigation Team (JIT) has been formed for PK8303 crash investigation. The JIT will be headed by Additional Director FIA Immigration Lahore Imran Yaqoob.

Abbas
Main objective of any aircraft accident investigation is to (technically) investigate the events, find causal and contributory factors to recommend measures and steps to avoid such events in future. To achieve this objective, preamble of ICAO Annex 13 declares above as the 'sole' aim of such investigations and not to apportion blame.
With this background in mind, the investigation team primarily includes experts in ac design, operation, maintenance, human factors and any other experts for a particular area if so required. Once this technical investigation is complete, and if gross negligence or criminal actions are suspected governments and regulators may take a legal action against those involved. However to begin with, this remains a pure, unbiased and objective technical exercise.
I donot understand, what value this JIT and Addl Dir Imm from FIA would bring into this.
The technical investigations as you know are already way by Pakistan AAIB with tech support of BEA. This JIT headed by FIA director seems to have been mandated for a criminal investigation?
TAILWIND
Registered Member
Posts: 2067
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:52 am

Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by TAILWIND »

Inam855 wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:11 am @Tailwind @A310 & @Airborne thank you for your insightful contributions, wish you a long & successful career.

@SM, I fully agree - time to move on until the next one.

Adieu blue skies & tailwinds everyone!
Inam855 and SM. Please reconsider. Over the yours this forum has become a place of knowledge, insight and information on all matters related to aviation in Pakistan. Lets keep the forum that way a place we visit despite our commitments and jobs, a place where we can discuss something we all love .
Please recosnider.