PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

[Zulfiqar]

Airbus has no specific safety recommendations to raise at this stage of the investigation.“

I guess this initial response soon after downloading/decoding CVR-FDR informs -all other A320 operators that they don’t need to ground aircrafts for inspection of technical changes.

[fawad]

That is a polite way from Airbus of saying it was indeed a pilot error.

[Abbas Ali]

According to news reports:

French authorities have handed over CVR and FDR with downloaded data to President AAIB Air Commodore Muhammad Usman Ghani who will arrive in Islamabad aboard PIA flight PK8734 from Frankfurt on June 7.

Abbas

[ammad]

That is a polite way from Airbus of saying it was indeed a pilot error.

Meaning no Service bulletin as a result of this investigation. Aircraft and its maintenance is fine.

Same like Airblue incident, perfect Aircraft but crashed.

[fawad]

That is a polite way from Airbus of saying it was indeed a pilot error.

Meaning no Service bulletin as a result of this investigation. Aircraft and its maintenance is fine.

Same like Airblue incident, perfect Aircraft but crashed.

The only bulletin I wish to see is PIA and CAA taking some action against the people responsible. Can we charge those captains with murder due to negligence? Deny or reduce their benefits/retirement plans? or demote their ranks (as a token)? and impose punishment on those still alive who have had such incidents (maybe warning for the first time, consequences for the second time, fired on the third time)? Make it acceptable for pilots if they acknowledge their mistakes and actually abandon approach for a go-around and punish those that break SOPs for their own jugaar. CAA should also be more tightly regulated and ATC should be empowered (CRM training for them too). A reward if they absolutely deny such a landing and report it.

It may sound harsh but that is the way to go. Glorifying such people as shaheed is simple encouragement of such behavior and the worst possible thing to do.

[3DeltaDelta]

Coming out of this should be something that does greater good:

a) A culture of discipline and following rules and regulations and compliance and enforcement. No more of this captain slapping the steward, or captain deciding when to let a passenger in the flight deck while airborne or captain takes a nap in first class while in the air. There are dozens of such infractions and it has to start with rule of law.

b) A cockpit resource management culture where First Officer is empowered and equal when it comes to safety of a flight. If he/she observes captain doing something wrong, he has full support in rules to challenge the captain in the air and file the issue on the ground without fear of retribution.

Thats what the 97 dead and their families deserve this

[Frostbite]

That is a polite way from Airbus of saying it was indeed a pilot error.

Meaning no Service bulletin as a result of this investigation. Aircraft and its maintenance is fine.

Same like Airblue incident, perfect Aircraft but crashed.

The only bulletin I wish to see is PIA and CAA taking some action against the people responsible. Can we charge those captains with murder due to negligence? Deny or reduce their benefits/retirement plans? or demote their ranks (as a token)? and impose punishment on those still alive who have had such incidents (maybe warning for the first time, consequences for the second time, fired on the third time)? Make it acceptable for pilots if they acknowledge their mistakes and actually abandon approach for a go-around and punish those that break SOPs for their own jugaar. CAA should also be more tightly regulated and ATC should be empowered (CRM training for them too). A reward if they absolutely deny such a landing and report it.

It may sound harsh but that is the way to go. Glorifying such people as shaheed is simple encouragement of such behavior and the worst possible thing to do.

I agree 100% with all you have written. Those who disagree are still harbouring some vested interests and a soft corner for the pilots and the entire flawed system which lead to this disaster and the ones before this.
Fawad: I have been reading your comments on another well know Pilot/Aviation forum too and you have always made some valid observations and inputs.

[Abbas Ali]

Downloaded CVR and FDR data of flight PK8303 carried by PIA Frankfurt to Islamabad flight PK8734 performed by Boeing 777-300ER registration AP-BID.

Pakistan Triple Seven by Sandor Csoban, on Flickr

Abbas

[TAILWIND]

Downloaded CVR and FDR data of flight PK8303 carried by PIA Frankfurt to Islamabad flight PK8734 performed by Boeing 777-300ER registration AP-BID.
Abbas

Off topic......
The details of above picture show focal length of 50mm, is possible to have such a distant shot with 50mm, any photography enthusiast?

[A310]

For flights requiring two sets of cockpit crew, certain standards need to be maintained. This can be in two cases. The first one is ‘Class A’ where two flat beds are required for crew not at the controls. A downgrade of it which is also the minimum requirement is ‘Class B’ where two seats need to be cordoned off from the other seats by curtaining them so that the crew isn’t disturbed. This is mostly maintained on 777s. For A320s, the Commodores have acquired a waiver from CAA. So far A320 flights with multiple crew have been operated to Jeddah, Amman and Bangkok. On these flights two seats were just reserved for pilots in the first row. So much so, since it is in 3-3 configuration, the third seat was also sold to a passenger as these flights were mostly full. Imagine being on a duty of almost 16 hours and resting on those pathetic seats without any privacy. Isn’t sound sleep and rest necessary for crew to safely operate the second sector of such a turn around flight?

[Flyer1015]

I wish ATC staff must always staff's eye to WATCH LOOK SEE DOUBLE CHECK all aircraft's landing gear open they learn bad experience from AP-BLD crashed also PIA learn bad experience to let pilot to stay & rest home take 2 or 3 days off after job duty after PIA forced Captain Sajjad Gul to fly everyday daily get very tired after 6th flight SAME like Korea ASIANA airlines pilot got tired reduced from 140 hours to 90 hours per month after ASIANA & KOREAN AIR crashed many times. PIA always used second hand aircraft NOT new brand after 2008 last AP-BID 77W. Please BANNED landing 25L but USE landing 25R only but take off from 25L. SAME like happened of Air France A340 crashed into YYZ also BOAC 707-436's engine lost after took off and straight away U turn back to safety landed but flame out. A320 unsafe fly and A320 is very dangerous cockpit but 737 is Forumla F1 cockpit. PIA's all 737-340 excellent service NEVER kill passengers also 747, DC10, A310 & DHC6 Twin Otter excellent. If I am owner of my airlines then I will NEVER buy A320, A330 but My favourite is Boeing 747SP and A350 and B747-8 and A380 and B787 NEVER crashed. today A359 & A35K & B788, B789, B78X, 74H, A318 excellent flight.
Please NOTE my retired friend Captain Qantas 744 said that same like QF1 747-436 VH-OJH accidentally crashed landed overran in BKK Bangkok last September 1999 it happened same like TG 744 HS-TGF skipped BKK it still out of service same like HS-TEE A333 written off in BKK. HS-THB A359 touch down field of Phuket in 2016. Singapore Airlines 744 9V-SPK crashed took off Taipei in October 2000. Emirates 777-300 accidentally crashed in 2016. but B747SP China Airlines dutch rolls overturn 360o degreed from 41000feet to 9000feet in 1985 managed safely landed SFO instead of LAX. If my own airlines then I will buy B747SP best flight for memory good aircraft.

This is a pretty incoherent post that tries to draw conclusions for crashes that were completely irrelevant to each other. The sad reality is most crashes do end up being pilot error. The question is what kind of culture do you have at the airline and in the country where the accident occurred. The aviation safety culture in Pakistan is non-existent. Nothing changed after the PIA 2006 crash. Nothing changed after the CRM failure airBlue crash in ISB back in 2010. Nothing changed after Bhoja's crash in 2012. Nothing changed after the ATR PIA crash in 2016, we don't even have a report yet and it's almost 4 yrs later! And by the looks of it, looks like they are about to lay the blame 100% on pilots and publish the report to move on. No changes. By 2025, Pakistan will have yet another major aviation disaster.

By the way, "A320 unsafe fly and A320 is very dangerous cockpit" and "737 is formula F1" are very ridiculous statements! Have you flown either of these two planes?

[haroon_ek]

Downloaded CVR and FDR data of flight PK8303 carried by PIA Frankfurt to Islamabad flight PK8734 performed by Boeing 777-300ER registration AP-BID.
Abbas

Off topic......
The details of above picture show focal length of 50mm, is possible to have such a distant shot with 50mm, any photography enthusiast?

What is the altitude of this plane? Around FL 350? If yes then I think the EXIF data is wrong. If it was cropped manually then it requires a lot of cropping to get this close and at that time, the image would be pixelated.

Why I say this because I used a 55-300 lens to capture departures near Lahore Airport with a DSLR body with 1.5x crop factor. See the following photo of AP-BMS departed and having a calibrated altitude of around 2000 FT after departure. This photo was slightly cropped but not that much. Compare this with the AP-BID photo.

[SM]

I wish ATC staff must always staff's eye to WATCH LOOK SEE DOUBLE CHECK all aircraft's landing gear open they learn bad experience from AP-BLD crashed also PIA learn bad experience to let pilot to stay & rest home take 2 or 3 days off after job duty after PIA forced Captain Sajjad Gul to fly everyday daily get very tired after 6th flight SAME like Korea ASIANA airlines pilot got tired reduced from 140 hours to 90 hours per month after ASIANA & KOREAN AIR crashed many times. PIA always used second hand aircraft NOT new brand after 2008 last AP-BID 77W. Please BANNED landing 25L but USE landing 25R only but take off from 25L. SAME like happened of Air France A340 crashed into YYZ also BOAC 707-436's engine lost after took off and straight away U turn back to safety landed but flame out. A320 unsafe fly and A320 is very dangerous cockpit but 737 is Forumla F1 cockpit. PIA's all 737-340 excellent service NEVER kill passengers also 747, DC10, A310 & DHC6 Twin Otter excellent. If I am owner of my airlines then I will NEVER buy A320, A330 but My favourite is Boeing 747SP and A350 and B747-8 and A380 and B787 NEVER crashed. today A359 & A35K & B788, B789, B78X, 74H, A318 excellent flight.
Please NOTE my retired friend Captain Qantas 744 said that same like QF1 747-436 VH-OJH accidentally crashed landed overran in BKK Bangkok last September 1999 it happened same like TG 744 HS-TGF skipped BKK it still out of service same like HS-TEE A333 written off in BKK. HS-THB A359 touch down field of Phuket in 2016. Singapore Airlines 744 9V-SPK crashed took off Taipei in October 2000. Emirates 777-300 accidentally crashed in 2016. but B747SP China Airlines dutch rolls overturn 360o degreed from 41000feet to 9000feet in 1985 managed safely landed SFO instead of LAX. If my own airlines then I will buy B747SP best flight for memory good aircraft.

This is a pretty incoherent post that tries to draw conclusions for crashes that were completely irrelevant to each other. The sad reality is most crashes do end up being pilot error. The question is what kind of culture do you have at the airline and in the country where the accident occurred. The aviation safety culture in Pakistan is non-existent. Nothing changed after the PIA 2006 crash. Nothing changed after the CRM failure airBlue crash in ISB back in 2010. Nothing changed after Bhoja's crash in 2012. Nothing changed after the ATR PIA crash in 2016, we don't even have a report yet and it's almost 4 yrs later! And by the looks of it, looks like they are about to lay the blame 100% on pilots and publish the report to move on. No changes. By 2025, Pakistan will have yet another major aviation disaster.

By the way, "A320 unsafe fly and A320 is very dangerous cockpit" and "737 is formula F1" are very ridiculous statements! Have you flown either of these two planes?

It's his perspective, how can you call it "ridiculous"? Most of the content in your post is highly repetitive, isn't anything that no one here already knows, and adds little value to the discussion; still, it's your point of view and everyone respects you for that. It's always good to be kind and tolerant to others.

[Aphelion]

Off topic......
The details of above picture show focal length of 50mm, is possible to have such a distant shot with 50mm, any photography enthusiast?




I doubt it. I took this photo using a 150-600mm lens set at 600mm on a full frame camera and had to crop it a bit so I think a similar lens was used for the photo of AP-BID which on a Canon 800D with a crop factor of 1.6 would give a equivalent focal length of 960mm.

I hope it helps.

[Flyer1015]

It's his perspective, how can you call it "ridiculous"? Most of the content in your post is highly repetitive, isn't anything that no one here already knows, and adds little value to the discussion; still, it's your point of view and everyone respects you for that. It's always good to be kind and tolerant to others.

It's doing a disservice to someone reading who truly doesn't understand airplanes and the differences between the A230 and B737. This statement: "A320 unsafe fly and A320 is very dangerous cockpit but 737 is Forumla F1 cockpit." Is a very ridiculous statement to make. The A320 is a fine airplane. There is nothing unsafe about the aircraft, nor is the cockpit "very dangerous." The airplane does what the crew told it to do.

By the way SM, you have numerous times called out by name the crew of the Gilgit crash (among others) and publicly called for their firing. Whatever happened to be kind and tolerant to others? I guess that crew doesn't frequent this forum and can't defend themselves.