PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

[Abbas Ali]

According to news sources, air traffic control in statement to investigators said that PK8303 cockpit crew kept ignoring air traffic control's warning/advice about aircraft's speed/altitude. The cockpit crew said that they'll manage/match aircraft's speed/altitude for landing.

The aircraft touched runway surface with retracted landing gear and engines scraped runway surface, told air traffic control to investigators.

Abbas

[umar744]

you remember 14 years ago about October 2006 EU BANNED PIA 747 to EU after F27 crashed then March 2007 A310 & 747 banned to EU till 2010 back. I hope PIA please do NOT get EU banned again.

[Fanjet786]

I am sure this will trigger a lot of folks but what is PIA's policy on fasting?

It seems both pilots were fasting from what I have heard. Many international airlines dont allow fasting when flying for a reason. You lose effective decision making ability.

I am sorry but one's religous obligations are not a personal matter when it can impact hundreds of lives.

Please enlighten us which of the many International Airlines do not allow fasting?

[Abbas Ali]

French investigation team to stay in Pakistan for five days, according to news reports.

Abbas

[oozeman64]

https://nation.com.pk/27-May-2020/saeed ... a-caa-head

One hell of a presser by Saeed Ghani, a politician.

[oozeman64]

https://nation.com.pk/27-May-2020/saeed ... a-caa-head

One hell of a presser by Saeed Ghani, a politician.

In the full talk, he mentions some inaccurate facts such as the PK8303 being told to go around by ATC. Quite a bit of blame on ATC placed by him, this was not the case as the flight crew onboard were the ones that decided to go around, so ATC cannot be held accountable for the decision to go around.
However they (ATC) could be held accountable for allowing the plane to continue and try to land after such an unstable and dangerous approach which was far too 'hot and high' to be able to land safely. This is the pilot's job usually to ensure the plane is stable, but if ATC notices something dangerous, they should take action. An approach like this wouldn't be allowed at other international airports around the world at all.

Also, his analysis that the fact emergency response vehicles weren't ready at the airport puts blame on PCAA and airport management, however this is inaccurate as there was no mention of an emergency situation aboard PK8303 until near the end of the second approach when the pilot gives a mayday call, so there was no reason for emergency equipment to be scrambled until an emergency was declared.

I do however condemn the tower controllers not even looking at the arriving aircraft, even though it seems that the aircraft was controlled by approach radar, who even gave the landing clearance! This is another problem on it's own. Why wasn't the plane handed off to tower?

Keep in mind approach radar cannot physically see the plane like tower controllers can.

Just goes to show how many factors really went into this fatal incident.

[Zulfiqar]

[/quote] In the full talk, he mentions some inaccurate facts such as the PK8303 being told to go around by ATC. Quite a bit of blame on ATC placed by him, this was not the case as the flight crew onboard were the ones that decided to go around, so ATC cannot be held accountable for the decision to go around.[/quote]


He may be mistaking the communication when ATC,I believe, questioned the pilots before the initial approach when they were too high.

Politicians should also ask themselves when did the downfall of PIA started and which party has not had a hand in political appointments which and endorsing unprofessional culture in our society.

[nopy99]

PIA #8303 Update #4 Unstable Approach Profile from Blancolirio youtube channel.

https://youtu.be/UEYiiZdvNh4

[Flyer1015]

To those suggesting the FO went from flaps full to zero while near the runway, that would be fairly unlikely. The flap handle has two gates, one at flaps 3 and one at flaps 1. The gate means you cannot go from flaps full to flaps 2 by accident during a go around. You lift the lever of the flap handle and bring it to flaps 3. Now you'd have to release the lever, and then re-lift the lever to go to flaps 2. It can travel freely to flaps 1, and then you hit a gate again. Have to let go of flap lever and then re-lift the handle to go to flaps 0 (clean).

The idea is to protect a landing plane from flaps full during a go around to only flaps 3 in one movement of flaps. You would not want a design in which you grab once and move from flaps full to 0. Same reason for the gate at flaps 1, during takeoff with flaps 2 or 3, when you retract, you would not want to go to flaps 0 in one movement.

To go from flaps full to zero means the FO would have to move the handle and let go and re-lift at flaps 3, and then again let go and re-lift at flaps 1 in order to get to flaps 0. I'd put this at a highly unlikely possibility. In a normal go around, if you're flaps full you bring it to flaps 3. Then at acceleration altitude (typically 1,000 above ground level) you accelerate and bring the flaps to 1. And then clean to flaps 0. You then fly the circuit at green dot speed (min clean speed) in a flaps/slats fully retracted position.

[Fanjet786]

Here is a very interesting preliminary analysis based on PK8303 ADS-B data: (Please copy & paste the below URL links into your browser)



Here is an A320 Landing-Gear Downlock Safety Bulletin:

https://safetyfirst.airbus.com/app/them ... wnlock.pdf

[Abbas Ali]

French investigation team visited crash site again today.

Crash investigators have now allowed removal of wreckage from the crash site.



The wreckage will be shifted to Karachi Airport.



Engines and landing gear of the aircraft will be removed from the crash site later.

Abbas

[Zulfiqar]

From the videos above and earlier information it is clear that there were issues much earlier than the landing stage of the journey. When did they reach their top of descent and why was it at 10,000 ft so late in the descent?

[Hassan777]

https://nation.com.pk/27-May-2020/saeed ... a-caa-head

One hell of a presser by Saeed Ghani, a politician.

Only in Pakistan would a education minister of a province whose education is in ruins would comment on a aviation accident and speculate,Also saeed ghani’s bias towards pilots and complete enmity with the CEO speaks volumes about politics in PIA,Arshad Malik is good CEO (atleast on paper).Though I’m not too supportive of Armed forces personnel occupying civil offices but if a man like saeed ghani opposes him then he must be doing something right (in my opinion atleats),Also Mr.ghani demanded PALPA’s participation in the investigation I wonder how a minister is soo keen about PALPA,Was this the political influence Aviation minister meant when he said he wouldn’t let PALPA or any other union exert?

[A310]

https://nation.com.pk/27-May-2020/saeed ... a-caa-head

One hell of a presser by Saeed Ghani, a politician.

Only in Pakistan would a education minister of a province whose education is in ruins would comment on a aviation accident and speculate,Also saeed ghani’s bias towards pilots and complete enmity with the CEO speaks volumes about politics in PIA,Arshad Malik is good CEO (atleast on paper).Though I’m not too supportive of Armed forces personnel occupying civil offices but if a man like saeed ghani opposes him then he must be doing something right (in my opinion atleats),Also Mr.ghani demanded PALPA’s participation in the investigation I wonder how a minister is soo keen about PALPA,Was this the political influence Aviation minister meant when he said he wouldn’t let PALPA or any other union exert?

And only in Pakistan you’re going to find armed forces officers running a commercial airline. The military ego belongs only to the borders. There is a reason that most of the ex-airforce pilots flunked ATR check when PIA was hiring pilots on contract. This is the best opportunity for all organisational failures to surface. Hoping to see a safer PIA!

[Inam855]

@Flyer1015, I asked this a couple of posts back, but I'll ask again. A photo taken from crosswind (Reportedly) shows slats and flaps fully retracted. Can you point out the significance & time required for full flap retraction on the bus?

@A310: Hassan777 has a valid point. The fact of the matter is that all players in aviation (from the aviation division to ministry to caa to palpa to saep) have done little to advance safety in aviation in a country that has suffered 56 incidents in 70 years.

This CEO is no angel, but he is trying, and the results are speaking for themselves.

Secondly, does Saeed Ghani remember that his government appointed two PIA pilots both with 30ish years in commercial aviation as MD? What improvements did they make? Was the airline better off or worse off in their times? Did they maintain a no accident/incident record? Did they create and implement ANY sustainable systems for safety, passenger comfort, better training, liaison of pilots with ATCs/engineers?

The simple inability to accept that the fault rests partially with the ENTIRE aviation community is what has caused the event in the first place, yet the denial lives on. Sad state of affairs really.