PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

[Abbas Ali]

Is CVR from back tail or front in cockpit?

CVR and FDR both located in tail section of A320.

Flight recorders "are typically specified to withstand an impact of 3400 g and temperatures of over 1,000 °C (1,830 °F)".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_recorder



Abbas

[Clipper Express]

I am sure this will trigger a lot of folks but what is PIA's policy on fasting?

It seems both pilots were fasting from what I have heard. Many international airlines dont allow fasting when flying for a reason. You lose effective decision making ability.

I am sorry but one's religous obligations are not a personal matter when it can impact hundreds of lives.

[aur0ra]

I am sure this will trigger a lot of folks but what is PIA's policy on fasting?

It seems both pilots were fasting from what I have heard. Many international airlines dont allow fasting when flying for a reason. You lose effective decision making ability.

I am sorry but one's religous obligations are not a personal matter when it can impact hundreds of lives.

It is required that you are not fasting to be able to fly.

[Abbas Ali]

According to France's Bureau of Enquiry and Analysis for Civil Aviation Safety (BEA) statement.

Flight Data Recorder (FDR) is still in Pakistan.

Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) has not been recovered, so far.











Abbas

[Clipper Express]

Thanks aur0ra, but were they actually following guidelines. My take is sometimes it's just overlooked.

I like your possible scenario. Doesnt the A320 not let you deploy gears if you are above a certain speed, then you would get the continous chime, even if the landing gear lever is down ?

[aur0ra]

Thanks aur0ra, but were they actually following guidelines. My take is sometimes it's just overlooked.

I like your possible scenario. Doesnt the A320 not let you deploy gears if you are above a certain speed, then you would get the continous chime, even if the landing gear lever is down ?

The A320 doesnt let you lower your landing gear above 260kts I believe, and yes you do get warnings.

[Zulfiqar]

Hopefully CVR is recovered in the near future from the site and has not ended up with a kabbarri or ‘disappeared’ without trace.

[A310]

[quote="Clipper Express" post_id=198673 time=<a href="tel:1590523147">1590523147</a> user_id=1547]
Thanks aur0ra, but were they actually following guidelines. My take is sometimes it's just overlooked.

I like your possible scenario. Doesnt the A320 not let you deploy gears if you are above a certain speed, then you would get the continous chime, even if the landing gear lever is down ?

The A320 doesnt let you lower your landing gear above 260kts I believe, and yes you do get warnings.
[/quote]

It is 250 kts which is also the max speed allowed under 10000 feet.

[umar744]

Capt Sajjad Gul & F/O Azam have been switched on landing gear down but they & ATC tower staff did NOT know landing gear not working before touch down then pilots shocked engines hit runway and tried to took off climb up and round back to Runway unfortunately engines both died not working sad sorry accidentally happened but Airbus team staff still investigate & check maintenance & ATC & etc until CVR from lost & found property?

[umar744]

I would like to ask you for YES or NO anyone FOUND wreckage of TAIL / back rubber? anywhere in house or top roof or where?

[umar744]

perhaps maybe anyone found CVR / FDR and keep with anyone then please ask anyone to honest true to CAA or Govt or Police to can give money cash to anyone after CVR & FDR recovery ?

[awasi]

AoA, Eid Mubarak.

I'm no aviator by all means but I do have quite a lot of experience with professional flight simulation over the past 6-7 years. Some of this information in my 'theory' was shared by an a320 pilot with around 17 years of experience via my uncle who's a recently retired Air Cmdr.

A chain of major SOP violations led to this tragic mishap causing the deaths of many innocent lives. Remember, this is just speculations and theories based off of preliminary information we have gathered. The ultimate conclusion/result will be given out by the investigation teams, who are more than qualified than any of us.

First of all, both pilots were fasting. This is a big violation as fasting leads to a low blood glucose level which in biology has negative effects on a person's concentration level and their reaction times. So it is recommended that you dont do any work that requires intense mental or physical exertion. So you either fly and don't fast, or you fast and don't fly.

Secondly, the pilots had ignored some warnings coming from Approach ATC (correct me if I'm wrong).

Moving on, and this is where the whole mishap could've been prevented even if it weren't in the pilots hands, the aircraft was on the glideslope for ILS 25L and was at 3500 ft at 5nm out, where normally you should be at 1500 ft. You can even hear the surprise or shock coming out of the tower when they tried to confirm this (this can also be a case where they didn't hear the pilots properly so they tried to confirm). After confirmation, ATC had cleared them for landing. If this was any other international airport, the tower would've cancelled their landing clearance and would've asked for them to come in for another approach. But in Pakistan unfortunately the culture is that the pilot is the ultimate authority.

Due to their extreme height at that point on the approach, the pilots had brought the throttle down to idle to compensate for the steep descent. Also, one of the survivors said that the cabin announcement was a normal one which further supports the claim that there was no technical problem or any malfunctions in the aircraft's systems. Ok now back to the main point. They had a steep descent towards the runway with thrust down to idle and they did come in full flaps and landing gear. Some people claim that the master warning alarm heard during the conversation between the ATC and pilots is the gear malfunctioning. It's not necessarily that. It could be anything. Maybe they were at a higher speed than the limits of the flaps as supported by their steep descent. We need to wait for further confirmation on this.

Now that they were at 1000 ft, they could've elected for a go around, or even at minimums. But they decided to continue with the approach at short final. When the pilots realised that they were too far ahead above the runway and that they could've overran the runway if they did touchdown, they decided to go around. The captain called for gear up and flaps up, with the throttle in TOGA. Problem here is, they came in with their thrust on idle, so the engine would've taken some time to spool up and to regain speed. The F/O had pulled all the flaps up without leaving behind some flaps or even bare slats for the go around. This led to the wings losing their lift accompanied with the low thrust due to the engine spool up time. At this time, the aircraft was more than half way down the runway and struck the runway around 3 times with it's engines.

Now that the aircraft got its thrust and regained some altitude, the engines were failing due to the impact they had gotten. The accessory gearboxes on the CFMs damage were badly damaged. This is supported by the photos taken by people on the other end of the runway at 07R. Also notice that there were no flaps or slats out in that photo which further supports my previous statement.

The pilots at this point failed to inform the tower about their failing engines in time, in which case the ATC could've given at a heading of around 070 directly parallel to the runway for a downwind.

As for the ATC saying belly landing as an option for the second approach, this implies that the Tower had seen the aircraft hitting the ground.
I heard from one of the ground crew members at Karachi that they found nuts and bolts and 6 inch pieces of cowling and panels, and that they had moved this debris to a separate location for investigation. The runway was barely, if not at all damaged. There were only marks left from the engines being dragged.

The rest we all know how it played out.

Remember these are just all speculations and theories based off of the evidences that we have gathered up till this point. I may very well be wrong and so can be anyone. The final decision is in the hands of the investigation team who are clearly more knowledgeable than us. Thankfully the results and the investigation will be transparent as per the orders of PM, and the fact that international authorities are involved.

I pray that inshallah there will be reforms in the entire system, being led by merit and not sifarish, and for all other corrupted and failing systems & institutions.

May Allah forgive the souls of everyone that has departed and left us, and may Allah guide us all and give us the ability and unity to prevent such incidents in the future so that countless innocent lives are not put in danger. Ameen.

Even though we can only speculate at the time, I completely agree with what you have written, but if the captain had called for gears up!, when do you think this happened? Do you think the FO retracted the landing gear without compensating the time it takes for the engine gaining full power for the go around?

To the extent of my knowledge, the captain had most likely called for gears up, flaps up (the F/O might've misheard this and retracted all of the flaps up) and for max throttle after the touchdown markings, around 1/3rd of the way down 25L, and yes, I do think that the F/O had retracted the landing gear prematurely. We can support this with the fact that they were fasting and couldn't concentrate properly, nor could they react fast enough or properly for this matter. Again, I emphasize that these are just speculations based on what we have learned so far, so please, nobody is to be blamed fully until we get further information. Always keep in mind that these people have families & friends and what would they think when reading this. I request everyone to remain civil.

PIA cockpit crew has been fasting for eons, this is nothing new.

[Zulfiqar]

ATC must be aware of landing gear issues as they asked if they are going for a belly landing following go around. However, mention of the incident was not heard/ communicated between ATC and cockpit.
Did the ATC ask for ground emergency / fire crew to respond after the go around?

[nopy99]

Interviews with PK 8303 crew's families.

Asma Shehzadi


Captain Sajjad Gull


Anam Khan


Freed Ahmed Choudhry


First Officer Usman Azam

[Abbas Ali]

FDR was found on accident day i.e. May 22, according to PIA spokesperson statement. Search for CVR continues.

The airline's spokesperson has urged residents of Model Colony not to keep any part/component of the aircraft as a memento.

Abbas