PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Discuss issues and news related to PIA, Pakistani airlines and Pakistan's civil & military aviation.
oozeman64
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by oozeman64 »

AA wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 7:11 pm A great amount of focus is on the Captain.

As a general statement, any responsibility, praise, criticism should be shared. The Pilots try to do their job in a manner that allows them both to return home to their families. That takes care of the passengers and the rest of the crew too.

Mistakes and errors are part of being a human. Sometimes one thing can set off a series of escalating events, a cascade effect. The ‘why’ is much more important than the ‘who’.

One thing I’ve not seen mentioned and would like to ask. From the pictures of the respected Captain, I saw a star on each epaulet. Does this denote his rank as a Training Captain?
Talking to a pilot, he said (i quote) "everyone makes mistakes, it's just that our mistakes have great magnitudes of effect."

And as always, and as i have said before, there is no one person to blame, if any one of the many causes of catastrophe had been avoided, the outcome could've been vastly different.
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Flyer1015
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Flyer1015 »

As usual, they'll blame the dead pilots and move on with no changes. Then within 5 yrs another major fatal plane crash will happen in Pakistan and people will write it off as kismet. Pakistan needs change, top to bottom, in the civil aviation industry. Safarish needs to go away, need merit based positions, a good Safety Management System (SMS), a FOQA data system, and a LOSA system. If Pakistan has 500 flights per month, how many of those flights do CAA inspectors jumpseat in the flight deck for observation? How do you know how many approaches are unstable at PIA? Unless you have a QAR or FOQA system there is no way to track that. Even flight deck observations by the CAA would help track some data. Look at the safety systems in the United States, the safety record of aviation in the US, and learn from it. Pakistan should adopt best safety practices of countries like the US and UK.

But as usual, 2 dead pilots will be blamed for this crash without examining the entire system that put them in that position on that day. Change the system, you change the future for aviation safety. Blame 2 dead pilots, you don't change anything. They'll probably sacrifice a goat on the ramp at Lahore and go about their business, just as they did after the ATR crash.
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Hassan777
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Hassan777 »

Flyer1015 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:15 pm As usual, they'll blame the dead pilots and move on with no changes. Then within 5 yrs another major fatal plane crash will happen in Pakistan and people will write it off as kismet. Pakistan needs change, top to bottom, in the civil aviation industry. Safarish needs to go away, need merit based positions, a good Safety Management System (SMS), a FOQA data system, and a LOSA system. If Pakistan has 500 flights per month, how many of those flights do CAA inspectors jumpseat in the flight deck for observation? How do you know how many approaches are unstable at PIA? Unless you have a QAR or FOQA system there is no way to track that. Even flight deck observations by the CAA would help track some data. Look at the safety systems in the United States, the safety record of aviation in the US, and learn from it. Pakistan should adopt best safety practices of countries like the US and UK.

But as usual, 2 dead pilots will be blamed for this crash without examining the entire system that put them in that position on that day. Change the system, you change the future for aviation safety. Blame 2 dead pilots, you don't change anything. They'll probably sacrifice a goat on the ramp at Lahore and go about their business, just as they did after the ATR crash.
You’re right there are numerous short comings and discrepancies which cause a crash even looking at this one initially points to soo many things other than the pilots,Even if you read previous AAIB reports on ABQ 202 and NL 142 they had a long list of recommendations for the airlines, pilot and CAA and I don’t think they have even remotely tried to enforce them, this just shows the carelessness throughout the industry and it’s really sad, no one takes the blame here even after both Air blue crash and shaheen crash landing unions were really up for the investigation especially PALPA but when in both cases pilots were at fault among other things they rejected them and called them biased , This just shows how no one wants to change, Associations like PALPA and SEAP can make there members think a hundred times before slacking off. Really hope this crash finally wakes up the dead conscious of many.
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by flyingsystem »

I’m not sure if this guy is a « reliable «  source or not (i don’t follow pakistani channels usually), but interesting video nonetheless.
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by faisal-777 »

Flyer1015 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:15 pm As usual, they'll blame the dead pilots and move on with no changes. Then within 5 yrs another major fatal plane crash will happen in Pakistan and people will write it off as kismet. Pakistan needs change, top to bottom, in the civil aviation industry. Safarish needs to go away, need merit based positions, a good Safety Management System (SMS), a FOQA data system, and a LOSA system. If Pakistan has 500 flights per month, how many of those flights do CAA inspectors jumpseat in the flight deck for observation? How do you know how many approaches are unstable at PIA? Unless you have a QAR or FOQA system there is no way to track that. Even flight deck observations by the CAA would help track some data. Look at the safety systems in the United States, the safety record of aviation in the US, and learn from it. Pakistan should adopt best safety practices of countries like the US and UK.

But as usual, 2 dead pilots will be blamed for this crash without examining the entire system that put them in that position on that day. Change the system, you change the future for aviation safety. Blame 2 dead pilots, you don't change anything. They'll probably sacrifice a goat on the ramp at Lahore and go about their business, just as they did after the ATR crash.
We should indeed wait for investigation to determine but with apologies, the chain of events that has so far been uncovered seems to suggest the piloting might have been the biggest factor behind this tragedy, if not 100% the reason of it. The argument against that is further weakened by the transcripts so far which seem to suggest there was no technical issue at all.

This plane did not suddenly fall out of sky like the BOAC Comet crash or the Lauda flight 004 where it was structure and systems failure. This flight was in circumstances, where usually the worst scenario is a plane write off with no casualties. I understand people try to be diplomatic to not blame someone no longer in this world to defend themselves (we all make mistakes and can end up like them) but unfortunately facts are facts and have to be taken with pinch of salt.
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oozeman64
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by oozeman64 »

I believe, nevermind what the investigation concludes, the biggest reasons for these crashes is the overall company mentality in PIA, PCAA, and Pakistan overall.

We need checks and balances.

This is becoming a game with people's lives.

It needs to be regulated. Properly.
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flyingsystem
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by flyingsystem »

@faisal-777 I agree with you to some extent. It is very important to keep in mind the reason for an investigation is to find the root cause(s) of the accident and remedy it so it doesn’t happen again, not blame a certain individual. Even if the ultimate line of defence lies with the crew, it doesn’t start there. Let’s say hypothetically that crew made wrong decisions, investigation need to find why they did this error (fatigue, training, recklessness,...).
A question I ask myself: Why do we have so many crashes in Pakistan, even though same type of aircrafts are used worldwide with excellent safety records?
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Hassan777
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Hassan777 »

flyingsystem wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:05 pm I’m not sure if this guy is a « reliable «  source or not (i don’t follow pakistani channels usually), but interesting video nonetheless.
I agree with his every word, when news of hot and high approach came i knew the gilgit accident has come to bite us back had they fired her, or atleast made her repass her certifications this wouldn’t have happened.
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by oozeman64 »

flyingsystem wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:33 pm A question I ask myself: Why do we have so many crashes in Pakistan, even though same type of aircrafts are used worldwide with excellent safety records?
These questions should be asked to PIA's and PCAA's faces.

The commercial aviation industry in this country feels more like a mafia operation than a professional sector.

Except a mafia operation is probably less flawed.
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daniyal 07
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by daniyal 07 »

flyingsystem wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:33 pm @faisal-777 I agree with you to some extent. It is very important to keep in mind the reason for an investigation is to find the root cause(s) of the accident and remedy it so it doesn’t happen again, not blame a certain individual. Even if the ultimate line of defence lies with the crew, it doesn’t start there. Let’s say hypothetically that crew made wrong decisions, investigation need to find why they did this error (fatigue, training, recklessness,...).
A question I ask myself: Why do we have so many crashes in Pakistan, even though same type of aircrafts are used worldwide with excellent safety records?
Thats because pia doesnt maintain the aircraft properly, substandard practices are used to minimize money that is spent and the result is in front of you, even the paint is seen chipping of from the body of aircraft so clearly its no surprise how aircraft are maintained by them.
Inam855
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Inam855 »

Hassan777 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 3:51 pm
BaDaR wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 3:38 pm Flightradar decoded additional Extended Mode S data received from PK8303, including Indicated airspeed values. Data is available for download at https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/paki ... r-karachi/


Image
Note the sudden drop in the airspeed while altitude Is close to zero probably thats where the engines hit the ground,although their approach speeds seem under the 260 knot limit of landing gear deployment so the chime heard might not be the landing gear speed limit chime like many people thought.
Shahab wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 4:09 pm Can anyone please confirm the accuracy of IAS data provided by flightradar. If there is a tolerance in the calculations, the chimes may well be because of the high air speed landing gear issue.
Interesting - that will certainly warrant further analysis.

One word of caution - the data from the 14 different receivers isn't synchronised, as they all seem to be running different clocks, hence there is a lot of spurious jitter when you try to plot time series. So you get, for example, TAS jumping from 374 kts to 400 kts with timestamps only half a second apart.

But that's not an insurmountable problem, it should be possible to deduce the relative time offsets that should be applied to the data from respective receivers and produce a more accurate plot.

As others have said, this accident is looking increasingly bizarre.

Cognitive overload; distraction; task fixation, and sense of urgency. With a suhoor time of 3:30ish and a blocks off of 13:00, we're looking at 5-6 hours of sleep before waking up and heading to duty. Calculate the total flying times and turnaround times, they would have been back just for iftar.

The report and CVR transcripts will be fascinating, although will there actually be anything to learn...? It is very easy to ask "Why on earth did they do this or that?" However, what you have to ask is "With the situation they were in, and the information they had, why did they think what they were doing was correct?"

One way of operating an aircraft safely is to have a briefing at a sensible period of low workload, in which the crew openly and cooperatively discuss the approach, the threats to be faced, the required performance of the aircraft, how the aircraft is to be operated and what modes/level of automation to be used, and a number of check points during the approach where the profile can be measured against planned. This can then be used as decision points as to whether it is safe and sensible to continue the approach, or whether the configuration of the aircraft should be changed or any other changes are required. Ultimately, towards the end, let's say 1000 feet (not sure of PIA's sop) both pilots must ensure that if the aircraft is not on the centre line and prescribed glide path, with the speed stable and close to target and the engines at approach thrust - a go around shall be flown.

Some occupants of some aircraft flight decks may use different methods or no methods at all to achieve different outcomes. The reported reluctance to accept lower FLs from ATC adds another puzzle factor ... WHY stay high, when the procedures say descend? Hearing the Conversation between approach controller & PM it was approach controller asking if “Belly landing” is what they are performing. This makes me think the controller was aware of an abnormality, or had seen it, or was told by colleagues. IF, and this is a big IF, they had visual, shouldn't they have warned the crew about their gear not being down? Secondly, IF they did see engine sparks/visible smoke and had the chance to ask "belly landing", did they advise the crew sir you appear to be spewing smoke out your engines. And, now fully knowing that this was an abnormal situation, what was the sense in turning them to a heading of 110 AWAY from the airfield, instead of a tight downwind on 074? The fact is that this direction added extra flight time to the 2nd approach, valuable time that could have ended up in a different result.

Another point I feel may be significant, and perhaps the A320 folks can explain better: a photo taken (reportedly) at crosswind shows no flaps or slats. Would anyone care to point out the significance if any?

There is very, very rarely a single, one-and-only root cause: that is simplistic. Instead, there are a plethora of human, mechanical, organisational, managerial and cultural issues that on one unhappy day or night all come together (cf John Reason's Swiss Cheese model). An investigation that fails to dig deep into the cause-behind-the-cause-behind-the-cause is unlikely to reveal the full picture and thus prevent re-occurrence.

Yesterday, I did some research on the recent major air disasters in Pakistan. I quote the final reports from the CAA/excerpts available on the net:

- PIA Fokker at Multan: CRM, pilot's failure to raise landing gear & follow SOP
- Airblue at Islamabad: CRM, pilots' failure to understand autopilot system
- Bhoja at Islamabad: Lack of proper training on the aircraft, pilot's failure to follow SOP & to understand autopilot system
- JS air at Karachi: Mx, "Failure of captain to handle abnormal operation....and of FO to execute necessary measures"
- PIA at Havelian: Mx related
- PIA at Gilgit: never made public, but anyone can read the info on this forum.

See a common theme emerging?

Let's also hit upon the steep authority gradient between pilots vs ATC. Lack of exposure, lack of proper training, lack of any real authority, and the threat of "the captain will get me fired" leaves many more silent than they should be. Is there any real incident reporting system in place for ATCs? I know there is one on paper, but is it actually used? Would the pilots at PIA like to explain why they had their inhouse safety magazine discontinued? Would anyone from the PIA community like to share their Whatsapp conversations with reference to this case & palpa's "political power"?

This sense of being above the law needs to change, fast, and the airline, the regulator, and the ministry are all at fault for not making examples out of every single one - sweeper, baggage loader, engineer, cabin crew, pilot or director - who violates SOPs.
oozeman64 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 5:21 pm You're right approach doesnt give landing clearences, but i have spoken to the captain of an a320 and he has told me that at least on one occasion, he was cleared to land before being handed over to tower.
Although this could be an isolated incident.
This doesn't really help us in the PK8303 accident but it may show us that SOPs aren't strictly adhered to by ATC.
I've heard this multiple times at different airports in Pakistan, perhaps someone with better knowledge can add the justification.
Flyer1015 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:15 pm As usual, they'll blame the dead pilots and move on with no changes. Then within 5 yrs another major fatal plane crash will happen in Pakistan and people will write it off as kismet. Pakistan needs change, top to bottom, in the civil aviation industry. Safarish needs to go away, need merit based positions, a good Safety Management System (SMS), a FOQA data system, and a LOSA system. If Pakistan has 500 flights per month, how many of those flights do CAA inspectors jumpseat in the flight deck for observation? How do you know how many approaches are unstable at PIA? Unless you have a QAR or FOQA system there is no way to track that. Even flight deck observations by the CAA would help track some data. Look at the safety systems in the United States, the safety record of aviation in the US, and learn from it. Pakistan should adopt best safety practices of countries like the US and UK.

But as usual, 2 dead pilots will be blamed for this crash without examining the entire system that put them in that position on that day. Change the system, you change the future for aviation safety. Blame 2 dead pilots, you don't change anything. They'll probably sacrifice a goat on the ramp at Lahore and go about their business, just as they did after the ATR crash.
The sad part is the systems are there - just no one to implement and a strong "buddy" system ensures nothing improper ever sees the light of day. Expect the typical knee-jerk reaction, and the storm will blow over when something else becomes viral on social media. My question to respected members who have inside knowledge of PIA: WOuld anyone like to share if the PF/PM continuing an unstable approach below 1000' without any extenuating circumstances, are penalized? At my parent company, first incident is warning letter, second is straight termination - no questions asked. Also, I'd love to hear what internal actions were taken on PK786 (Feb 20th incident).
Hassan777 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:30 pm Even if you read previous AAIB reports on ABQ 202 and NL 142 they had a long list of recommendations for the airlines, pilot and CAA and I don’t think they have even remotely tried to enforce them, this just shows the carelessness throughout the industry and it’s really sad, no one takes the blame here even after both Air blue crash and shaheen crash landing unions were really up for the investigation especially PALPA but when in both cases pilots were at fault among other things they rejected them and called them biased , This just shows how no one wants to change, Associations like PALPA and SEAP can make there members think a hundred times before slacking off.
Such an important point to note. I'm certain by now PALPA have done a press conference and committed to ensuring safety of passengers no matter what. They must also have committed to enhancing training, practicing multiple failures in training, and adopting SOPs, or their big announcement must be just around the corner.

@faisal-777, @oozeman64, @ flyingsystem reasonable points. @daniyal 07, and yet despite all the poor engineering, in the above list of crashes I quoted, maintenance is fully implicated only in one, but another factor has been quoted a lot more.
Last edited by Inam855 on Mon May 25, 2020 11:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
oozeman64
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by oozeman64 »

Inam855 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 11:21 pm This sense of being above the law needs to change, fast, and the airline, the regulator, and the ministry are all at fault for not making examples out of every single one - sweeper, baggage loader, engineer, cabin crew, pilot or director - who violates SOPs.

This.Both the airline and CAA keep getting away from questioning and disciplining. They seem to play by their own conditions.

This mentality or culture of doing their own thing and not following SOPs needs to change, and things need to be taken seriously.

As you said, there are rules, but no enforcers. This is something that is visible throughout society in Pakistan, but is something that the aviation sector can afford, not with lives at stake.
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Flyer1015
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Flyer1015 »

faisal-777 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 9:13 pm
We should indeed wait for investigation to determine but with apologies, the chain of events that has so far been uncovered seems to suggest the piloting might have been the biggest factor behind this tragedy, if not 100% the reason of it. The argument against that is further weakened by the transcripts so far which seem to suggest there was no technical issue at all.

This plane did not suddenly fall out of sky like the BOAC Comet crash or the Lauda flight 004 where it was structure and systems failure. This flight was in circumstances, where usually the worst scenario is a plane write off with no casualties. I understand people try to be diplomatic to not blame someone no longer in this world to defend themselves (we all make mistakes and can end up like them) but unfortunately facts are facts and have to be taken with pinch of salt.
Yes, I already said this crash will be attributed to pilot error. The plane was fine until they broke it. That's not the point though. The point is two trained pilots found themselves in a situation in which they did not go around, unstable approach, and not broken off sooner. How's CRM in Pakistan? How are the checks and balances in aviation safety? Is a FO truly empowered to speak up against one of the most senior CAs and tell him that he indeed is in over his head and take over the jet? Had the airBlue FO done that, they would have all lived. This is beyond just blaming 2 dead pilots and writing off this crash as yet another case of "pilot error." It's not just pilot error, it's a system error. Until you change the system, these crashes will continue.
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by umar744 »

Airbus A330-800neo first time to KHI today arrive 0630am please photo & video it inshallah put into this post for good luck.
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

Airbus A330-800 (aircraft registration F-WTTO) arrived in Karachi at 6:34 AM as Airbus flight AIB1888 from Toulouse. Flight completed in seven hours & forty one minutes.

The aircraft is carrying team that will investigate May 22, 2020, crash of PIA Airbus A320 (AP-BLD) Lahore to Karachi flight PK8303.

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Source: flightradar24.com





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The aircraft departed from Karachi at 8:53 AM as Airbus flight AIB1888 to Paris Le Bourget Airport. Probably also carrying PK8303 flight recorders for decoding in France.

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Source: flightradar24.com

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