PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

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Abbas Ali
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

Air traffic controller to be questioned for not asking cockpit crew to check landing gear down and locked position.

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Air traffic controller also to be questioned for not informing cockpit crew about runway scrapping by aircraft engines.

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I think Karachi Airport authorities will also be asked why they kept Runway 25L open for flight operations after engines' scraping and did not close it for debris inspection.

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Frostbite
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Frostbite »

Flyer1015 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 6:24 am
Inam855 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 12:38 am @Flyer1015, I dont know why you have started debating religion, but airplanes are christened, adorned with "Allah protect you", and various other cultural/traditional rituals (I've seen examples from India and Thailand) are a regular happening. Not sure what your point there was, but you rightly add concerns about the general state of the aviation industry, challenges of nepotism, and blaming kismet. It's a very real social and cultural issue that has made its way into every line of work in Pakistan. I also believe you missed a JS B1900 on your list. There are so many extreme examples of incompetence at all levels from clerks to directors that I kid you not, when I narrate some incidences to my colleagues they think I am joking. Take the example of a certain pilot, who "forgot" to remove the gear lock pin on a walk around, costing the airline millions in fuel and a diversion - he was promoted to instructor for this act of professionalism and now teaches people to become (hopefully) better pilots. The situation has deteriorated to a point where you can either die of depression or laugh and join the lunacy, and everyone seems to be taking it in stride.
I'm not debating religion, I'm simply stating what you have just written. A lot of negative things that happen are just written off as kismet, or allah theek rakhay, or allah khair sallah. When the ATR crashed in 2016, the next flight of the ATR they sacrificed a goat. Zibbah right there on the ramp, blood flowing out. What does that tell you about the mentality of people? No action taken at PIA, the CAA, the SIB, but they did sacrifice a goat for Allah. This type of mentality and strategy will not work in preventing aviation accidents in Pakistan.
I understand that religion is a touchy subject and most people are simply scared to bell the cat specially in Pakistan. During the entire discussion on here no one has touched on the impact of fasting while flying an aircraft let alone being in command of one. Media circles are widely reporting that the deceased Captain of the ill-fated aircraft was staunchly religious and though not confirmed yet, it is being speculated that he was fasting. Since it was a 1300 hrs departure from Lahore. The flight crew has to report to the airport well in advance and get busy straight away with briefings, analysing weather charts etc. If you account for waking up very early for Sehr and then staying up a while longer for Fajr prayers.
If the pilots were fasting then it is fair to say that they were unable to get adequate rest prior to reporting for duty and then subsequently flying the first leg and remember they had to fly the return leg back to Lahore too making it somewhat of a stretch specially when fasting. It is a proven medical fact that fasting affects your blood sugar levels which then has a further affect on your concentration which is correlated to decision making ability. All evidence available till now points towards the baulked gear up first attempt as being the main catalyst for the events that eventually lead to the crash which was a direct result of poor decision making by not paying heed to ATC's repeated warning and concerns and still being committed to a dangerous approach which even violated PIA' s own SOP for descent and also ignoring a major checklist item (landing gear) for reasons unknown as of now.
I am sure the investigation team would consider the fasting angle during the crash investigation.
I am based overseas and the aviation outfit I work for has a strict policy on fasting as it would make not just pilots but also cabin crew illegible to fly if they were found to be fasting. Would be good to hear from Pakistan based posters regarding PIA and other local operators policy on fasting. And if there is a policy in place is it strictly implemented or they just turn a blind eye to it to not provoke the prevaling religious sensitivities.
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Abbas Ali
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

International Federation of Air Line Pilots' Associations (IFALPA) wants to join investigation.

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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

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Capt. Sajjad Gul's father says his son had experience of 17,000 flying hours and was the only pilot in the airline to complete 1000 flying hours in one year.

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oozeman64
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by oozeman64 »

Abbas Ali wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 1:29 pm
Air traffic controller also to be questioned for not informing cockpit crew about runway scrapping by aircraft engines.
Is it clear whether pk8303 was handed over from approach to tower before striking the ground on 25L?

If they stayed with approach during the whole instance, then the ATC would not know about the engine groundstrike at all, since they don't sit in view of the runway
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

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Cockpit crew communicated with Approach Radar instead of Control Tower, according to Geo News.

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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by oozeman64 »

Abbas Ali wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 2:16 pm Image
Cockpit crew communicated with Approach Radar instead of Control Tower, according to Geo News.

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This is actually something that happens at karachi, a similar instance is when planes get cleared to land by approach control before being handed over to tower. Such instances should never occur.
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Frostbite »

oozeman64 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 2:09 pm
Abbas Ali wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 1:29 pm
Air traffic controller also to be questioned for not informing cockpit crew about runway scrapping by aircraft engines.
Is it clear whether pk8303 was handed over from approach to tower before striking the ground on 25L?

If they stayed with approach during the whole instance, then the ATC would not know about the engine groundstrike at all, since they don't sit in view of the runway
Would be very interesting to know if the pilots were totally unaware that some part of the aircraft came in contact with the runway during the first attempt. What they would have surely known is that they did not have the landing gear deployed at that attempt hence more likelihood of some engine contact with the tarmac. The onus was on the flight deck crew as well to inform ATC that they 'might' have scraped the engines as soon as possible since they hit TOGA and decided to have another attempt. One must assume that a vastly experienced flight deck crew should also be aware that engine scrapes come with the inherent risk of further damage to the vital components present inside the engine cowlings. Hence one cannot take a chance on it by witholding that information from ATC. This fact only worried them and communicated to ATC once they actually found out that the engines had failed and by that time it was too late. ATC can only act and provide assistance based on the information supplied to them by the flight deck.
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by oozeman64 »

Frostbite wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 2:45 pm
Would be very interesting to know if the pilots were totally unaware that some part of the aircraft came in contact with the runway during the first attempt. What they would have surely known is that they did not have the landing gear deployed at that attempt hence more likelihood of some engine contact with the tarmac. The onus was on the flight deck crew as well to inform ATC that they 'might' have scraped the engines as soon as possible since they hit TOGA and decided to have another attempt. One must assume that a vastly experienced flight deck crew should also be aware that engine scrapes come with the inherent risk of further damage to the vital components present inside the engine cowlings. Hence one cannot take a chance on it by witholding that information from ATC. This fact only worried them and communicated to ATC once they actually found out that the engines had failed and by that time it was too late. ATC can only act and provide assistance based on the information supplied to them by the flight deck.
I totally agree, It was up to the flight crew to inform ATC for any contact with the runway that they were not 100% sure was the landing gear.
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by oozeman64 »

Perhaps if the plane was controlled by tower instead of approach during final, they would've seen the engine contact and closed rwy 25L, (or if the pilots informed ATC of the ground-strike) and directed PK8303 towards 25R, which could've meant that a populous area could be avoided if the aircraft wasnt able to make it to the runway.

Keep in mind this is just speculation.
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Hassan777 »

oozeman64 wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 3:02 pm Perhaps if the plane was controlled by tower instead of approach during final, they would've seen the engine contact and closed rwy 25L, (or if the pilots informed ATC of the ground-strike) and directed PK8303 towards 25R, which could've meant that a populous area could be avoided if the aircraft wasnt able to make it to the runway.

Keep in mind this is just speculation.
Yes,tower would’ve definitely asked them to land at 25R,considering it has more flat land which can provide a good area to carry out a belly landing or even an under run landing with no engines.
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by BaDaR »

Flightradar decoded additional Extended Mode S data received from PK8303, including Indicated airspeed values. Data is available for download at https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/paki ... r-karachi/


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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Hassan777 »

BaDaR wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 3:38 pm Flightradar decoded additional Extended Mode S data received from PK8303, including Indicated airspeed values. Data is available for download at https://www.flightradar24.com/blog/paki ... r-karachi/


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Note the sudden drop in the airspeed while altitude Is close to zero probably thats where the engines hit the ground,although their approach speeds seem under the 260 knot limit of landing gear deployment so the chime heard might not be the landing gear speed limit chime like many people thought.
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

No one, including Pakistan Air Line Pilots' Association (PALPA), will be allowed to do politics on PK8303 crash, said Aviation Minister Ghulam Sarwar Khan today.

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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Shahab »

Can anyone please confirm the accuracy of IAS data provided by flightradar. If there is a tolerance in the calculations, the chimes may well be because of the high air speed landing gear issue.