PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

[oozeman64]

There are a few interesting observations. My question to pilots over here:

1. When they were too high and too close, it means they would need to lose altitude quickly. This essentially means pitching the nose down and/or gathering speed. Is it true that you cannot lower landing gear at certain speeds (too fast)? So, in essense, the question turns to: is it possible that the landing gear problem was one they created rather than maintenance issue?

2. How can a pilot come in for belly landing (or just main landing gears) without emergency services at the runway and informing passengers and crew to prepare for a possible evacuation?

The possible scenario is this: Pilots (for reasons to be determined) were too high, decided against a 180 degree to lose altitude, and started descending. This increased speed and landing gears did not deploy. They thought it will when the speed reduces but the level stays down and nothing happens (you need to up the lever and lower it again when speed reduces). At landing, the engine scrapes the runway, and the pilot realizes they made a boo-boo. TOGA but the damage was done. They gained altitude and ATC asked/cleared them for 3000ft but the pilot struggled to maintain altitude at 2000ft. At this point, engines lost thrust (at the time of MAYDAY call) and the plane was essentially a glider that was too low.

1.
^ A320 landing gear maximums.

The only sign (thus far) that shows us that the ATC was informed of landing gear issues is when the controller asks PK8303 if they were attempting a belly landing after the go around.

2. They cannot. If the pilot is coming in for a belly landing knowingly, then the pilot would declare an emergency, and emergency services would be scrambled on the ground. ATC, crew and passengers would be informed.

[A310]

I never mentioned that the controller should hanged or something for skipping the gear part in his clearance. It probably didn’t even have the slightest contribution in the crash but you cannot say that he wasn’t at any fault. Ignoring SOPs is a blunder no matter what. At the same time I am also not jumping to the defence of the pilots. There are many uncertainties present right now but we don’t have the pilots with us to answer our queries. The controller is there though. And the controller couldn’t even have been in a stressful situation that he forgot to ask them. Fatigue/stress/overconfidence, whatever the reason for the pilots alleged mistake was, they were in a stressful decision making process. Only time and investigation will ascertain how much problematic there decisions were. But all avenues should be explored when investigating the death of 100 people. The pilots will obviously be thoroughly investigated but along with that some other questions need to be answered. Was the aircraft maintained properly? What prompted the controller to skip the gear warning and consequently if the aircraft touched the runway why wasn’t the observation passed on to the cockpit crew? Why do our 320s have recurring gear issues? On top of that there is a blatant disregard to flight safety in scheduling practices. Why did these 2 pilots fly the most in this corona time? Why was a pilot forced to fly to Jeddah when his COVID result was still awaited? An in depth investigation is required to prevent further accidents. Its not like two senior 320 pilots decided to risk their lives and approach hot and high on one fine day. Get into the psychology of everything. Blame the pilots in public for their fault(if it turns out to be? but at the same time look into all departments relevant to flight safety. Its not like military mindsets have the potential to run a commercial airlines smoothly. They have all the media on their payroll so I don’t even listen to PIA related news on media. It’s all crap. This loss should be taken as an opportunity to rectify problems in all departments.

[oozeman64]

IF the gear was not extended during approach to 25L, the "too low - gear" GPWS warning would've alarmed the pilots starting at 500 ft above ground. Could this have startled or confused the crew who thought their gear was down already, and not give them enough time to initiate a go around safely?

[fawad]

Aslamalakum,
I am not as knowledgeable as some of the brothers on here are, But I have some very simple questions if someone can answer?

1. Is it possible for when a pilot is under immense stress in the cockpit, the sounds of warnings can be ignored? Or he simply cannot hear the warning sounds because of his mental condition during an emergency?

2. Do you think the tower should of declared an emergency before the go around or before the engines scraped the ground?

3. Why did the tower not close the runway after this incident? I understand there was a take off or landing not long after this incident on the same runway.

4. Should fasting be banned whilst flying an aircraft?

5. and finally, can the RAT be deployed manually by the pilot, or does it only deploy when both engines fail.

I would be grateful for any answers.

Kind Regards

Mohammed Younis

1. Not only possible, common. Happens when you're fixated on one thing or if your sense says one thing while aircraft shows another.
2. Only if they are aware of it. So far, we don't know if pilots knew (and informed) ATC of landing gear problems on the first attempt.
3. They probably knew about it much later. Unless someone was using binoculars to see the plane or it caused major incident that was noticeable. Otherwise, it would look like a missed attempt. That's me guessing here though.
4. I think the problem here is more than that. CRM, pilot attitude and ego, maintenance issues, and a general careless attitude in the whole nation.
5. Yes

[Guru]

Aslamalakum,
I am not as knowledgeable as some of the brothers on here are, But I have some very simple questions if someone can answer?

1. Is it possible for when a pilot is under immense stress in the cockpit, the sounds of warnings can be ignored? Or he simply cannot hear the warning sounds because of his mental condition during an emergency?

2. Do you think the tower should of declared an emergency before the go around or before the engines scraped the ground?

3. Why did the tower not close the runway after this incident? I understand there was a take off or landing not long after this incident on the same runway.

4. Should fasting be banned whilst flying an aircraft?

5. and finally, can the RAT be deployed manually by the pilot, or does it only deploy when both engines fail.

I would be grateful for any answers.

Kind Regards

Mohammed Younis

Answers:
1. Yes, it is possible. we see that happening all the time during simulator training.
2. No. The emergency is to be declared by the pilot.
3. Until and unless physical inspection of the runway has been carried out or an unusual touchdown like the body of the airplane touching the runway or a very hard landing has been reported, the ATC will not close the runway.
4. It is not permitted to fast and fly.
5. It can be deployed manually also.

[mohammed younis]

Aslamalakum,
I am not as knowledgeable as some of the brothers on here are, But I have some very simple questions if someone can answer?

1. Is it possible for when a pilot is under immense stress in the cockpit, the sounds of warnings can be ignored? Or he simply cannot hear the warning sounds because of his mental condition during an emergency?

2. Do you think the tower should of declared an emergency before the go around or before the engines scraped the ground?

3. Why did the tower not close the runway after this incident? I understand there was a take off or landing not long after this incident on the same runway.

4. Should fasting be banned whilst flying an aircraft?

5. and finally, can the RAT be deployed manually by the pilot, or does it only deploy when both engines fail.

I would be grateful for any answers.

Kind Regards

Mohammed Younis

1. Not only possible, common. Happens when you're fixated on one thing or if your sense says one thing while aircraft shows another.
2. Only if they are aware of it. So far, we don't know if pilots knew (and informed) ATC of landing gear problems on the first attempt.
3. They probably knew about it much later. Unless someone was using binoculars to see the plane or it caused major incident that was noticeable. Otherwise, it would look like a missed attempt. That's me guessing here though.
4. I think the problem here is more than that. CRM, pilot attitude and ego, maintenance issues, and a general careless attitude in the whole nation.
5. Yes

Thank you Fawad, that answers everything for me.

[Ranveer]

h
4) Yes there is. Smartlynx A320 in Estonia.

The Smartlynx incident was quite similar. Their engines gave up as well but they managed to land 150 fr short of the runway and thankfully there were no fatalities.

[Abbas Ali]

Engines scrape marks on Runway 25L.



Abbas

[umar744]

I believed pilots both faulty 100% accidentally crashed because they both forgot switch landing gear down for 1st approach also they too late to turn immediately to 25R NOT 25L Capt Sajjad Gul & F/O Azam both "HUMAN ERROR"

[A310]

I believed pilots both faulty 100% accidentally crashed because they both forgot switch landing gear down for 1st approach also they too late to turn immediately to 25R NOT 25L

Please explain the latter part of your post? I couldn’t get it, sorry.

[oozeman64]

I believed pilots both faulty 100% accidentally crashed because they both forgot switch landing gear down for 1st approach also they too late to turn immediately to 25R NOT 25L

Please explain the latter part of your post? I couldn’t get it, sorry.

I think he means that residential areas near 25L should have been avoided.

[A310]

I believed pilots both faulty 100% accidentally crashed because they both forgot switch landing gear down for 1st approach also they too late to turn immediately to 25R NOT 25L

Please explain the latter part of your post? I couldn’t get it, sorry.

I think he means that residential areas near 25L should have been avoided.

I think there were many things on their minds in the final moments so putting “100 percent fault” on them for crashing on a residential area is premature.

[oozeman64]

IF the gear was not extended during approach to 25L, the "too low - gear" GPWS warning would've alarmed the pilots starting at 500 ft above ground. Could this have startled or confused the crew who thought their gear was down already, and not give them enough time to initiate a go around safely?

If approaching at 130 KIAS at a normal descent rate following the glidepath for 25L, at landing configuration (full flaps, gnd spoilers armed) but without landing gear extended, pilots would have approximately 48 seconds between the first "Too low - gear" warning and touchdown of engines.

For PK8303, the time between 500 ft to engine touchdown is approximately 30 to 35 seconds, calculated by converting the flightradar24 calibrated altitudes to actual altitudes.

This data shows us that the pilots had limited time to understand the warning that starts at 500 ft, and to be able to react by initiating the go around sequence at a safe enough altitude so the engines had time to spool up and provide sufficient lift.

A delay in the reaction or confusion as to why the warning was sounded may have been the reason the engines touched down onto 25L.

Seems so far that the unstable approach onto 25L could be a major factor to the crash.

Of course, actual data from the FDR will either prove or dismiss this theory.

[oozeman64]

I believed pilots both faulty 100% accidentally crashed because they both forgot switch landing gear down for 1st approach also they too late to turn immediately to 25R NOT 25L

Please explain the latter part of your post? I couldn’t get it, sorry.

I think he means that residential areas near 25L should have been avoided.

I think there were many things on their minds in the final moments so putting “100 percent fault” on them for crashing on a residential area is premature.

I agree with you A310. There is a lot that goes in inside the cockpit, but even more that goes on inside the human mind.
Especially at this stage, where no investigation has concluded, we may share theories, but let's not point fingers or call anyone "faulty 100%"

[Abbas Ali]

PK8303

Crisis statement

Airbus regrets to confirm that an A320 aircraft operated by Pakistan International Airlines was involved in an accident during flight PK8303 from Lahore to Karachi on May, 22 2020. Initial reports indicate there were 91 passengers and 8 crew members on-board. Our thoughts are with all those affected.

At this stage, Airbus has no confirmed information concerning the circumstances of the accident. The aircraft, registration number AP-BLD, Manufacturer Serial Number 2274, first entered service in 2004. It has been in operation with Pakistan International Airlines since 2014. The aircraft had logged around 47 100 flight hours and 25 860 flight cycles as of today. It was powered by CFM56-5B4/P engines.

In line with ICAO annex 13, Airbus is providing full technical assistance to the Bureau d’Enquêtes et d’Analyses of France and to the Pakistani Authorities in charge of the investigation. Technical support is also being provided by Pakistan International Airlines and engine manufacturer CFM.

Further updates will be provided as soon as further consolidated information is available and Airbus is authorized to release it.

Last updated: May, 22 2020, 19:30 CEST

Source: airbus.com