PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

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TAILWIND
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by TAILWIND »

SM wrote:While no one should jump to conclusions without access to all the details surrounding the accident, I have a hunch that the Hamilton Sundstrand 6-bladed 568F prop on this ATR 42-500 was poorly maintained by PIA Engineering.
Your analysis does not support your opening statement.
Poor maintenance and modifications to the prop by using non-standard parts and procedures by PIA could have possibly resulted in a catastrophic engine failure similar to that experienced by Atlantic Southeast Airlines (ASA) Flight 529. You can learn more about ASA 529 from the links below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_ ... Flight_529
Emb120 referred to in the link had metallic blades while ATR42-500 has composite blades. Except that both are manufactured by UTAS, there is no firther similarity.
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by umar744 »

do you remember ATR engine failure crashed into river through road after took off from Taiwan ? please click website is

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20150204-0

it same like PIA ATR crashed but hill & mountains are high sea level difficult height see below about

A TransAsia ATR-72-600 operating as flight GE235 from Taipei to Kinmen Island impacted a highway viaduct and the waters of the Keelung River near New Taipei City shortly after takeoff. Forty-three occupants on board the airplane suffered fatal injuries. Fifteen were injured.
The airplane took off from Taipei-Sung Shan Airport's runway 10 at 10:51 hours local time and turned right, climbing to an altitude of 1350 feet. At 10:52 the master warning sounded in the cockpit associated with the right engine (no. 2) flame out procedure message. Some 26 seconds later the left hand (no. 1) power lever was retarded to flight idle. After twenty seconds the left engine condition lever was set to the fuel shutoff position resulting in left engine shutdown.
Instead of continuing the climbing right hand turn, the airplane had turned left and began losing altitude and speed with several stall warnings sounding in the cockpit. At 10:53, the flight contacted the Sung Shan Tower controller declaring a Mayday and reporting an 'engine flameout'. The airplane then turned to the right while the crew attempted to restart the left hand engine.
This succeeded at 10:54:20 hours. Fourteen seconds later the stall warning sounded in the cockpit. Video footage of the accident show that the airplane banked almost 90 degrees left as it hit a taxi on a viaduct. Parts of the left hand wing broke off upon hitting the barrier of the viaduct. The airplane broke up as it impacted the Keelung River and came to rest inverted.

Findings Related to Probable Causes:
Powerplant
1. An intermittent signal discontinuity between the auto feather unit (AFU) number 2 and the torque sensor may have caused the automatic take off power control system (ATPCS):
- Not being armed steadily during takeoff roll;
- Being activated during initial climb which resulted in a complete ATPCS sequence including the engine number 2 autofeathering.
2. The available evidence indicated the intermittent discontinuity between torque sensor and auto feather unit (AFU) number 2 was probably caused by the compromised soldering joints inside the AFU number 2.

Flight Operations
3. The flight crew did not reject the take off when the automatic take off power control system ARM pushbutton did not light during the initial stages of the take off roll.
4. TransAsia did not have a clear documented company policy with associated instructions, procedures, and notices to crew for ATR72-600 operations communicating the requirement to reject the take off if the automatic take off power control system did not arm.
5. Following the uncommanded autofeather of engine number 2, the flight crew failed to perform the documented failure identification procedure before executing any actions. That resulted in pilot flying's confusion regarding the identification and nature of the actual propulsion system malfunction and he reduced power on the operative engine number 1.
6. The flight crew's non-compliance with TransAsia Airways ATR72-600 standard operating procedures - Abnormal and Emergency Procedures for an engine flame out at take off resulted in the pilot flying reducing power on and then shutting down the wrong engine.
7. The loss of engine power during the initial climb and inappropriate flight control inputs by the pilot flying generated a series of stall warnings, including activation of the stick pusher. The crew did not respond to the stall warnings in a timely and effective manner.
8. The loss of power from both engines was not detected and corrected by the crew in time to restart an engine. The aircraft stalled during the attempted restart at an altitude from which the aircraft could not recover from loss of control.
9. Flight crew coordination, communication, and threat and error management (TEM) were less than effective, and compromised the safety of the flight. Both operating crew members failed to obtain relevant data from each other regarding the status of both engines at different points in the occurrence sequence. The pilot flying did not appropriately respond to or integrate input from the pilot monitoring.
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by Abbas Ali »

Media reports clarified

Karachi; December 11, 2016
- Spokesman PIA has strongly rebutted media reports that propellor of one the engines of the ATR-42 aircraft that crashed on December 7, had started to spin in reverse, or had some known defect prior to take off, which led to this accident.

These reports are mere speculations which may mislead the public into drawing wrong conclusions. Fact of the matter is that both engines of the aircraft were fully operational at the time of takeoff from Chitral and some problem developed during flight.

The whole incident is being thoroughly investigated by Safety Investigation Board (SIB), which is an independent body working under the Aviation Division. All items recovered from the site, including cockpit instruments, are part of the evidence and may give valuable insights about the cause of the accident, but cannot provide conclusive evidence in isolation.

Public should rest assured that SIB is under instructions from the Prime Minister of Pakistan that a detailed, independent and transparent inquiry be carried out and truth should be brought out and shared with the people in the shortest possible time.

Therefore, media is requested to wait till the investigation process is completed and refrain from drawing any premature conclusions.

It is pertinent to mention here that ATR 42 and 72 (more than 1200 aircraft built) use engines manufactured by one of world's most reliable engine manufacturers, Pratt & Whitney, which has provided more than 13,000 commercial engines to a range of aircraft manufacturers including Boeing and Airbus since 1925, in addition to providing more than 7300 engines for multiple military aircraft.

Source: PIA
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by Abbas Ali »

According to latest reports:

Safety Investigation Board (SIB) has sealed crash site. Unauthorised visits to crash site by individuals belonging to various organisations including PIA will not be allowed.

Meanwhile, a British insurance company visited crash site and took photos of aircraft wreckage.

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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by Abbas Ali »

According to Express News channel, Safety Investigation Board (SIB) has received maintenance record of the ill-fated ATR from PIA. Record of communication between flight PK-661 cockpit crew and ATC also has been received by SIB.

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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by Abbas Ali »

A four member team has arrived in Pakistan to visit PK-661 crash site.

Two members representing aircraft manufacturer i.e. ATR.
Two members representing aircraft engines manufacturer i.e. Pratt & Whitney Canada.

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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by raihans »

As per wikipedia, Pratt & Whitney Canada is division of US-based Pratt & Whitney so any possible chance of NTSB participating in investigation or it is entirely upto request from SIB CAA Pak for assistance/support, if required? :-k
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by NL »

raihans wrote:As per wikipedia, Pratt & Whitney Canada is division of US-based Pratt & Whitney so any possible chance of NTSB participating in investigation or it is entirely upto request from SIB CAA Pak for assistance/support, if required? :-k
iirc, investigators from the state of manufacturing only get involved by invitation or if no investigation is initiated by the state of registry. If either were to apply, the investigators would probably be from France's BEA.
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by Abbas Ali »

According to news sources:

Three Canadian nationals representing aircraft engine manufacturer Pratt & Whitney Canada have arrived.
Three French nationals representing aircraft manufacturer ATR have arrived.

Meanwhile, wreckage of ATR at crash site has been covered with plastic sheets for protection against weather conditions like rain.

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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

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According to news sources, crashed aircraft's flight recorder(s) have been handed over to French authorities for decoding process.

Foreign investigators from France and Canada also visited crash site today to examine aircraft wreckage.

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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by Abbas Ali »

AP-BHO wreckage examined by experts from Canada/France on December 13.

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Source: ummat.net

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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by Abbas Ali »

Transportation Safety Board of Canada / Bureau de la sécurité des transports du Canada (TSB / BST) - tsb.gc.ca - is taking part in investigation of PIA flight 661 crash.

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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by Hamad »

Abbas Ali wrote:Transportation Safety Board of Canada / Bureau de la sécurité des transports du Canada (TSB / BST) - tsb.gc.ca - is taking part in investigation of PIA flight 661 crash.

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Abbas
Good to know that a foreign independent Investigation Board is taking part in it.
Best Regards / Wa´alaikumusalam
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

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i hope the investigation will be transparent and not under any influence to save the culprits and there will not be blame game on flight crew who are no more among us to defend them-self
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by yyzflyer »

I agree that it should be independent and impartial and should be published by the independent foreign safety inspectors.
While I am glad that TSB from Canada is taking part, are they invited by Pakistan or by the aircraft manufacturer to help?
Hopefully they can quickly get to the bottom of it all and publish the report so that safety can be improved and kept tight for all pakistani aircraft.
I recall the CAA did shakedown inspections of airblue after the margalla tragedy.

Why do shakedown inspections only happen after tragic and fatal accidents? Why is it not routine to do them?