PIA should convert 777 fleet to all economy

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Amaad Lone
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PIA should convert 777 fleet to all economy

Post by Amaad Lone »

PIA has 35 outdated club class seats in the front section of its 777 fleet.

These seats being old and outdated are now sold as "PREMIUM ECONOMY" at a 15-20 percent higher fare then regular economy.

The layout for a standard PREMIUM ECONOMY on the 777 is 2-4-2 while PIA is selling 2-3-2 which is waste.

If PIA removes these 35 seats it can fit 72 seats (8 rows of 9) as regular economy seats at 32 inch seat pitch.

This should improve the bottom line of the 777 fleet increasing the overall capacity of the 777-200ER from 329 to 366 passengers.

777-200ER has the long range and the increased capacity will not effect PIA operations to any destination, maybe other then Canada.
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ammad
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Re: PIA should convert 777 fleet to all economy

Post by ammad »

Or very least to convert one of the B-777 AP-BGL [the one involved in alleged incident] to a full freighter and see how the market looks like.

During Covid, and due to supply chain disruption, Freighter service is in very very high demand.
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bukhari917
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Re: PIA should convert 777 fleet to all economy

Post by bukhari917 »

A bit of story, I arrived Bangkok on 13th March 2022 with Austrian Airlines B777 from Vienna. Before departure, I checked the aircraft details as I always do and realized that OE-LPE , a Boeing 777-200 ER which operates this route quite often is an almost 24 years old aircraft. I had read and watched (as I always do) very very positive reviews of Austrian flights to/from Bangkok including both in economy and business class so when I saw this age, I was quite worried about the interior state of the cabin. I was however very positively surprised that not just with the cabin was very nice and modern, the service aboard was awesome and overall condition of this aircraft was amazing. Very well maintained, working and latest IFE with latest and very responsive touch screens, comfortable seats and a very clean overall cabin. Only thing was it didn't have wifi as one can expect with such old aircrafts. I will capture pictures of the cabin on return flight this Friday, was too tired on this flight and just slept until an hour before landing.

Now, I had always thought that PIA 777 fleet should soon be retiring but now I see a possibility, although no hope. PIA has 12 777s with oldest being 18 years old which means there might be (for some, if not all) still time to upgrade their cabins and fly these birds for couple of more years. As you might have noticed I travel quite a lot (multiple flights in a month including long hauls) but I have strictly avoided PIA for years now. I will never fly PIA especially on long-haul American, European or Sydney (if it ever realized!) routes with existing cabins. I just can't handle them anymore and believe they really need to stop talking bull shits and act now. I wonder why can't they do it when Sri Lankan, Biman and now even Nepalese airlines are doing much better than this once Pride of aviation (Nepal's recent A330 addition is amazing). This has to change and PIA including other Pakistani airlines will have to UP their game to stay alive. This attitude will keep them flying but probably reduce them to Middle eastern region without a sincere overhaul of not just the aircrafts but the attitude as a whole. My sister for example was flying alone to Dammam last month and since only PIA is a direct connection from ISB to Dammam these days, we booked her on this flight, and due to her medical condition she needed wheelchair which was reserved when booking flight. When asked at departures at ISB, they said it will be given at Check-in counters. She kept asking for it at Check-in and they said its coming. One man went to bring it but disappeared and no one ever came with it. She had to walk all the way to the gate and even on arrival. The staff was just hiding. This attitude is pathetic.

mohsin habib
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Re: PIA should convert 777 fleet to all economy

Post by mohsin habib »

bukhari917 wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 4:48 am A bit of story, I arrived Bangkok on 13th March 2022 with Austrian Airlines B777 from Vienna. Before departure, I checked the aircraft details as I always do and realized that OE-LPE , a Boeing 777-200 ER which operates this route quite often is an almost 24 years old aircraft. I had read and watched (as I always do) very very positive reviews of Austrian flights to/from Bangkok including both in economy and business class so when I saw this age, I was quite worried about the interior state of the cabin. I was however very positively surprised that not just with the cabin was very nice and modern, the service aboard was awesome and overall condition of this aircraft was amazing. Very well maintained, working and latest IFE with latest and very responsive touch screens, comfortable seats and a very clean overall cabin. Only thing was it didn't have wifi as one can expect with such old aircrafts. I will capture pictures of the cabin on return flight this Friday, was too tired on this flight and just slept until an hour before landing.

Now, I had always thought that PIA 777 fleet should soon be retiring but now I see a possibility, although no hope. PIA has 12 777s with oldest being 18 years old which means there might be (for some, if not all) still time to upgrade their cabins and fly these birds for couple of more years. As you might have noticed I travel quite a lot (multiple flights in a month including long hauls) but I have strictly avoided PIA for years now. I will never fly PIA especially on long-haul American, European or Sydney (if it ever realized!) routes with existing cabins. I just can't handle them anymore and believe they really need to stop talking bull shits and act now. I wonder why can't they do it when Sri Lankan, Biman and now even Nepalese airlines are doing much better than this once Pride of aviation (Nepal's recent A330 addition is amazing). This has to change and PIA including other Pakistani airlines will have to UP their game to stay alive. This attitude will keep them flying but probably reduce them to Middle eastern region without a sincere overhaul of not just the aircrafts but the attitude as a whole. My sister for example was flying alone to Dammam last month and since only PIA is a direct connection from ISB to Dammam these days, we booked her on this flight, and due to her medical condition she needed wheelchair which was reserved when booking flight. When asked at departures at ISB, they said it will be given at Check-in counters. She kept asking for it at Check-in and they said its coming. One man went to bring it but disappeared and no one ever came with it. She had to walk all the way to the gate and even on arrival. The staff was just hiding. This attitude is pathetic.
I will strongly agree. Unfortunately, this has become our national character. The "Customer Service" is non-existent in any sector in our country. With the current management attitude, even you give them the latest a350s/787 etc, they will run it like a donkey cart.

Amaad Lone
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Re: PIA should convert 777 fleet to all economy

Post by Amaad Lone »

A bit of story, I arrived Bangkok on 13th March 2022 with Austrian Airlines B777 from Vienna. Before departure, I checked the aircraft details as I always do and realized that OE-LPE , a Boeing 777-200 ER which operates this route quite often is an almost 24 years old aircraft. I had read and watched (as I always do) very very positive reviews of Austrian flights to/from Bangkok including both in economy and business class so when I saw this age, I was quite worried about the interior state of the cabin. I was however very positively surprised that not just with the cabin was very nice and modern, the service aboard was awesome and overall condition of this aircraft was amazing. Very well maintained, working and latest IFE with latest and very responsive touch screens, comfortable seats and a very clean overall cabin. Only thing was it didn't have wifi as one can expect with such old aircrafts. I will capture pictures of the cabin on return flight this Friday, was too tired on this flight and just slept until an hour before landing.
You never voiced your opinion on the topic of the thread. Should PIA convert its 777s to all economy, as the Premium Economy price difference does not justify the 35 seats in the front section and should be replaced with 72 regular economy seats. Not talking about phasing out PIA 777s, just changing the layout.
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bukhari917
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Re: PIA should convert 777 fleet to all economy

Post by bukhari917 »

Amaad Lone wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:03 pm
A bit of story, I arrived Bangkok on 13th March 2022 with Austrian Airlines B777 from Vienna. Before departure, I checked the aircraft details as I always do and realized that OE-LPE , a Boeing 777-200 ER which operates this route quite often is an almost 24 years old aircraft. I had read and watched (as I always do) very very positive reviews of Austrian flights to/from Bangkok including both in economy and business class so when I saw this age, I was quite worried about the interior state of the cabin. I was however very positively surprised that not just with the cabin was very nice and modern, the service aboard was awesome and overall condition of this aircraft was amazing. Very well maintained, working and latest IFE with latest and very responsive touch screens, comfortable seats and a very clean overall cabin. Only thing was it didn't have wifi as one can expect with such old aircrafts. I will capture pictures of the cabin on return flight this Friday, was too tired on this flight and just slept until an hour before landing.
You never voiced your opinion on the topic of the thread. Should PIA convert its 777s to all economy, as the Premium Economy price difference does not justify the 35 seats in the front section and should be replaced with 72 regular economy seats. Not talking about phasing out PIA 777s, just changing the layout.
Hi, what i meant to say is like Austrian, PIA should upgrade their entire cabins of 777s (which can still fly couple of more years), instead of converting all into economy. PIA should improve their cabins and offer connectivity between Europe and Australia and rest of the world. This would have been in an ideal world. However I disagree 777s should be converted all economy with current cabins. Yes an overhauled, improved an new cabin with all economy and proper IFE is still reasonable in my opinion.

MadViking
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Re: PIA should convert 777 fleet to all economy

Post by MadViking »

bukhari917 wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 7:19 pm
Amaad Lone wrote: Thu Mar 17, 2022 2:03 pm
A bit of story, I arrived Bangkok on 13th March 2022 with Austrian Airlines B777 from Vienna. Before departure, I checked the aircraft details as I always do and realized that OE-LPE , a Boeing 777-200 ER which operates this route quite often is an almost 24 years old aircraft. I had read and watched (as I always do) very very positive reviews of Austrian flights to/from Bangkok including both in economy and business class so when I saw this age, I was quite worried about the interior state of the cabin. I was however very positively surprised that not just with the cabin was very nice and modern, the service aboard was awesome and overall condition of this aircraft was amazing. Very well maintained, working and latest IFE with latest and very responsive touch screens, comfortable seats and a very clean overall cabin. Only thing was it didn't have wifi as one can expect with such old aircrafts. I will capture pictures of the cabin on return flight this Friday, was too tired on this flight and just slept until an hour before landing.
You never voiced your opinion on the topic of the thread. Should PIA convert its 777s to all economy, as the Premium Economy price difference does not justify the 35 seats in the front section and should be replaced with 72 regular economy seats. Not talking about phasing out PIA 777s, just changing the layout.
Hi, what i meant to say is like Austrian, PIA should upgrade their entire cabins of 777s (which can still fly couple of more years), instead of converting all into economy. PIA should improve their cabins and offer connectivity between Europe and Australia and rest of the world. This would have been in an ideal world. However I disagree 777s should be converted all economy with current cabins. Yes an overhauled, improved an new cabin with all economy and proper IFE is still reasonable in my opinion.
I concur with you Bukhari917.

First, very nice read on your OS experience. I too had a very similar experience some years back out of Beijing. Flew in from Toronto on AC for a work conference but returning I decided to have a little fun and be an "av geek" so I booked OS PEK-VIE-CDG and then AC to YYZ. The OS was an old 20+ years 763ER. I was hesitant at first but when booking I noticed their business was a newly configured 1-2-1 with "Throne" seats. It was awesome for a 10+ flight PEK-VIE sitting on a window Throne, and the cabin/aircraft interior looked brand new for a 20+ year old bird. I took a walk to the back and it too was newly upgraded.

Now for the subject at hand, I know friends and relatives who will pay a "little" extra to sit in the wider seats to fly between Pak. and YYZ versus the connecting hassles and extra time on one of the ME3s. If they take it out and go all Y then I too would be forced to choose DXB or AUH to come to KHI (my old home town). Personally my advice would be when time comes for a major overhaul of the two 77Ls, put a new "up to date" J section with lie flats, and change Y to 3-4-3. The 777s still have a lot of life left in them with relatively low cycles. It would be a lot cheaper to give them a good face lift and bring them up to 2022 standards then incur the capital costs of new 350s or 787s. But if it's one thing for sure, PIA management knows how to waste money or fill their pockets government funds for the airline.

This could be done to the entire 777 fleet to be cost effective and keep the aircraft for at least another 10 years. It should not effect any range performance issues. BTW, the thread starter mentioned 200ERs to Canada should not be effected with range. The 200ERs and 300ERs seldom come to YYZ as they don't have dedicated crew rest bunks. Only the two Ls have the bunk beds and from what I gather, you cannot retrofit a crew rest area above the J section afterwards. Hence only in dire situations have we seen the 300ER subed for Toronto. A complete refurbishment of the cabins and IFE would be a lot cheaper then new aircraft purchases, these birds still have a lot of life left and conversion to cargo potential after another 10 years of good pax use. But knowing how the PCAA and PIA conduct business, common sense and practicality are lacking.

As for the comments of customer service, one must have an expectation of what to expect. This is not Singapore or Cathy or Luft. Be happy if your flight takeoffs relatively on time, you get a half decent hot meal and your bags arrive at the destination. Anything more is a bonus. To be fair, I have only travelled J on PIA for all my visits back home and staff and crew were fine and you have to "go with the flow." When someone starts acting like a big shot expecting to get more because of their privileges' and status, not only is it entertaining but also confirms how lucky I am to be living abroad in a civilized world where we line up properly for service and not look down on someone just because their income level, stature or dressing is lower than mine. Sorry to hear about your sister and no wheel chair service. That is incompetency and total ignorance to your job duties, or as I call it, "hiding behind the veil of job security" as there are very few people who go above and beyond at PIA.

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Re: PIA should convert 777 fleet to all economy

Post by Moin »

Reconfiguring the front cabin with 'Premium Y' type seats may not be a bad idea. Now EK has installed amazing Premium Y seats on their A380's and while I cannot see PIA being able to afford those higher end Premium Y seats, they should differ a bit from the typical Y class seats.
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ammad
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Re: PIA should convert 777 fleet to all economy

Post by ammad »

One thing PIA could do immediately is to re-configure the economy class to 3-4-3 configuration, thus it will immediately boost the capacity as Hajj/Umra traffic is picking up and UK/EU ban might be removed by end of next month.

PIA is in the league of few Airlines of the world that operates B-777 with 3-3-3 layout and i think this layout is no more economically viable.

PIA could buy after market, refurbished seats and could start this process one B-777 Aircraft at a time.

I think some of the lease B-777 i.e. AP-BMG and AP-BMH have 3-4-3 configuration.
Last edited by ammad on Sat Mar 19, 2022 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Moin
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Re: PIA should convert 777 fleet to all economy

Post by Moin »

BMS has the 3-4-3 configuration as well as a Premium Y cabin.
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ammad
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Re: PIA should convert 777 fleet to all economy

Post by ammad »

Any one knows how many total seats are in BMS? compare to other PIA 777 of same variant?
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Amaad Lone
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Re: PIA should convert 777 fleet to all economy

Post by Amaad Lone »

Recently traveled on Virgin Atlantic 787 Premium Economy.

It was 2-3-2 layout and the leg room was very generous. The onboard entertainment system was very nice, as were the seats.

On PIA 777 fleet former Club Class (layout 2-3-2) is now being sold as premium economy at a price of 20 percent over economy.

In other airlines 777 premium economy is 2-4-2.

PIA is losing money on its 35 premium economy seats, as those can be replaced by 72 economy seats effectively doubling the revenue of the airline for that section.

second if PIA wants to sell at 25-30 percent above economy then that section should be refurbished and sold as 2-4-2 seats with better leg room.
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Amaad Lone
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Re: PIA should convert 777 fleet to all economy

Post by Amaad Lone »

Two PIA 777-200ERs are being converted to all economy layout for Saudi Arabian routes.

Aviation minister wrote on his Facebook page.
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Usman123
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Re: PIA should convert 777 fleet to all economy

Post by Usman123 »

Amaad Lone wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:45 pm Two PIA 777-200ERs are being converted to all economy layout for Saudi Arabian routes.

Aviation minister wrote on his Facebook page.
They've finally listened to you 😁

Amaad Lone
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Re: PIA should convert 777 fleet to all economy

Post by Amaad Lone »

They've finally listened to you 😁
I dont know. Maybe someone in PIA reads this forum and made a similar suggestion to him.
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