PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

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A310
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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by A310 » Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:35 pm

Abbas Ali wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:44 pm
^ Even the most experienced/skillful pilot can make mistake. Majority of aircraft accidents around the world occur due to pilot error.

Technical side of the incident should be discussed without defamatory/slanderous remarks against any individual.

Abbas
Exactly what I’ve been trying tackle since the day of this incident. Forum member SM has consistency exhibited a certain grudge against Capt. Maryam. If you had deduced so much by just watching the video and made the effort to reach out to pilot fraternity then a year ago you should’ve written a letter to someone holding a powerful post highlighting the wrongdoings of the concerned pilot. Constructive criticism is more than welcome here but nobody visits this forum to read a long personal rant by you. Initially I kept on defending the pilots but I’ve kept my silence as the SIB is doing its work and let them decide what to do.


SM
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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by SM » Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:52 am

Abbas Ali wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:44 pm
^ Even the most experienced/skillful pilot can make mistake. Majority of aircraft accidents around the world occur due to pilot error.

Technical side of the incident should be discussed without defamatory/slanderous remarks against any individual.

Abbas
I was only sharing facts that were narrated to me by people in the know. Anyone can share an alternate set of facts if they think they have a more reliable source or have firsthand experience that negates what I am sharing.

Unfortunately, as a HOP member since 2005, I have observed firsthand how the forum has transitioned into a place where only the "positive" point of view is allowed to thrive under the garb of "constructive criticism" and dissenting voices are quietly silenced.

If all is so well and the pilot was so competent, why did she fail her checks? If you think she never failed checks, please provide a counter argument that is based on sources you trust. Simply saying all is well, the pilot is great, the airline is awesome, and it was just an accident is, in my opinion, an attempt to "sweep things under the carpet" i.e. the "sub chalta hai" mentality or "allah ka kam hai".

Sharing that there's something wrong with the person and the organization's training and hiring process isn't automatically slander unless you can provide an alternate set of facts.

I don't know about others, but I have paid taxes in seven-figure US$ to the Government of Pakistan and to this day the government actually owes me rather than the other way around. I am sure this is not the case with every forum member. As such, as a tax payer, I have every right to question why a $15M aircraft was damaged, why thousands of people will no longer fly that route out of fear, and how PIA's image was further tarnished by this crew when every other factor appears not to be an anomaly.

Like most Pakistanis, the members of this forum can continue to bask in the warmth of "sub acha hai" until- God forbid - someone here or their loved ones becomes a victim of one of these incompetent "professionals" and ends up paying a much greater, personal price for their acts. Till then, have a great day and in the meantime, I personally will not entrust my life or those of people I care about to a crew that prioritizes selfies over airmanship.
SM

pk757
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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by pk757 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:30 pm

A310 wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:35 pm
Abbas Ali wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:44 pm
^ Even the most experienced/skillful pilot can make mistake. Majority of aircraft accidents around the world occur due to pilot error.

Technical side of the incident should be discussed without defamatory/slanderous remarks against any individual.

Abbas
Exactly what I’ve been trying tackle since the day of this incident. Forum member SM has consistency exhibited a certain grudge against Capt. Maryam. If you had deduced so much by just watching the video and made the effort to reach out to pilot fraternity then a year ago you should’ve written a letter to someone holding a powerful post highlighting the wrongdoings of the concerned pilot. Constructive criticism is more than welcome here but nobody visits this forum to read a long personal rant by you. Initially I kept on defending the pilots but I’ve kept my silence as the SIB is doing its work and let them decide what to do.
I agree. We all should act more mature and not mud sling or victimize anyone or dig out records, Let the authorities handle the work. And not take accountability in our hands by just looking at a very raw video. Wishing everyone safe landings!

fahadshakeel
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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by fahadshakeel » Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:57 pm

pk757 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:30 pm
A310 wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 7:35 pm
Abbas Ali wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:44 pm
^ Even the most experienced/skillful pilot can make mistake. Majority of aircraft accidents around the world occur due to pilot error.

Technical side of the incident should be discussed without defamatory/slanderous remarks against any individual.

Abbas
Exactly what I’ve been trying tackle since the day of this incident. Forum member SM has consistency exhibited a certain grudge against Capt. Maryam. If you had deduced so much by just watching the video and made the effort to reach out to pilot fraternity then a year ago you should’ve written a letter to someone holding a powerful post highlighting the wrongdoings of the concerned pilot. Constructive criticism is more than welcome here but nobody visits this forum to read a long personal rant by you. Initially I kept on defending the pilots but I’ve kept my silence as the SIB is doing its work and let them decide what to do.
I agree. We all should act more mature and not mud sling or victimize anyone or dig out records, Let the authorities handle the work. And not take accountability in our hands by just looking at a very raw video. Wishing everyone safe landings!
I think the basic purpose of public forum is to give & discuss your opinion based on experience, rationales & knowledge. One shouldn't be discouraged if they have facts. There is a very good chance that he could have approached the authorities before hand; but facts are always being discussed when an incident happens.

I personally believe this forum is being observed by lots of decision makers and authoritative bodies which makes much more sense to extract best of your knowledge so that they get some better angles to investigate and put a stop on influential hiring and unskilled deployments. I think authorities are intelligent enough to justify & conclude on the basis of facts.

It's just conflict on opinions. We all respect Abbas at our best and as he said even the most experienced pilot can make mistake but Abbas, the probability and frequency of mistakes by skilled pilots is way lesser than a . Though we have no doubt on Maryam Masood's experience even on this route but the skills because those are always being judged at Mayday not at all good situations. She mentioned that she was unable to control the speed and late touchdown, so yes; she wasn't skilled enough to make a decision of way-around.

She got an extended spotlight in 2018 on same route, although a lot of people showed there disagreement which might have never been considered just because we are highly overwhelmed with Women empowerment and in their perspective prefer to say 'ALL IS WELL'.

Here was a story: https://images.dawn.com/news/1180309

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Abbas Ali
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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by Abbas Ali » Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:45 pm

ATR team arrives to examine aircraft damaged while landing

Mohammad Asghar

Updated August 14, 2019

RAWALPINDI:
A team of experts of the Aerei da Trasporto Regionale (ATR), the Franco-Italian aircraft manufacturer, has arrived in Pakistan to examine the ATR aircraft of the Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) which was badly damaged after skidding off the runway while landing at Gilgit Airport on July 20.

The PIA’s flight PK-605 from Islamabad to Gilgit with 53 people, including crew members, on board had skidded off the runway and come to a halt in a grassy area next to the tarmac.

All passengers and crew members remained safe in the accident, but the pilot and a co-pilot were grounded pending an investigation into the incident launched by the Civil Aviation Authority’s Safety Investigation Board (SIB).

When contacted, PIA’s spokesman Mashhood Tajwar told Dawn that a team of ATR experts arrived in Islamabad last week to examine the plane in Gilgit.

“The experts will examine the plane and submit their report after their return to France about whether the aircraft is repairable or not,” Mr Tajwar said, adding that action would be taken in the light of the experts’ report.

He said the two pilots grounded after the Gilgit accident would be allowed to fly aircraft only after the safety investigation board allowed them to do so.

An aviation expert not wishing to be named said that the ATR aircraft damaged in Gilgit last month was beyond repair because its right side had been badly damaged.

The PIA spokesman said the organisation had a fleet of 12 ATR planes, but now only six to seven of them were operational.

When asked how much time would be required to complete the report on the Gilgit incident, the spokesman didn’t give any time limit but said it would take some time because the ATR team would go back to France and then compile a report.

Source: DAWN
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ammad
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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by ammad » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:05 am

Abbas Ali wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:45 pm
ATR team arrives to examine aircraft damaged while landing

Mohammad Asghar

Updated August 14, 2019

The PIA spokesman said the organisation had a fleet of 12 ATR planes, but now only six to seven of them were operational.
Very least he should be telling exact number of Aircraft that are operational.
Fortune favours brave.

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Abbas Ali
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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by Abbas Ali » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:06 pm

Recently six PIA ATRs seen active on flightradar24.com.

ATR 42-500 registration AP-BHH

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ap-bhh

ATR 42-500 registration AP-BHI

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ap-bhi

ATR 42-500 registration AP-BHM

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ap-bhm

ATR 72-500 registration AP-BKV

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ap-bkv

ATR 72-500 registration AP-BKX

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ap-bkx

ATR 72-500 registration AP-BKY

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ap-bky

Abbas
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Flyer1015
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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by Flyer1015 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:53 am

No views should be silent just because it goes against the majority.


I was born in Lahore and moved to the United States at the age of 8 and am now an airline pilot for a major airline here. For aviation it is a night and day difference. In this country, we don't operate on "sub khooch theek hein" or "inshallah, Allah khair sallah." The last major US airline accident was in 2009 when a Q400 stalled and crashed outside Buffalo. The NTSB investigated and issued a very thorough report. In response to that accident, everything here was overhauled. We had new FAR 117 Rest Rules. Pilot hiring requirements changed from 250 hrs to 1,500 hrs (ATP rule). Stall profiles and training was changed. Those are just some examples. Since then, we've had a very safe aviation record with all things considered.

What saddens me is the track record of the last 10 yrs in Pakistan's aviation industry and the lack of any action to mitigate and stop the trend. In 2010 it was an airBlue A321 CFIT accident (38 page report released by the SIB). In 2012 a Bhoja Air B737 crash in Islamabad (SIB released a report). And in late 2016, the ATR crash that killed everyone aboard including Junaid J. In four months we'll come up on the 3rd anniversary of that crash and still there hasn't been any report published on the accident by the SIB. The sheer incompetence of the SIB is staggering. It is ridiculous! But, as the saying goes, "istara he mulk chalta hay." So in 7 years there were 3 major airline crashes, all completely fatal, and nothing changed in Pakistan's aviation industry. There is no holding something to account. Where's the ATR crash final accident report? What did the aviation industry learn there? What changes did they institute by law as a result of the 2016 crash?

Now this ATR incident happened and it's one more thing the SIB has to investigate and address. But the sheer incompetency of the SIB means nothing much will change. I can't comment on this incident Captain's training record or previous incidents since I'm not acquainted with any details, nor do I know anything in terms of her employment, nepotism, string-pulling. If those are true, nothing surprises me. The country runs on nepotism and favoritism. Not merit.

I'm glad everyone was safe and made it out alive from this ATR incident. But nothing has changed since 2010 when airBlue crashed. The SIB is incompetent and the CAA hasn't done anything to promote or advance safety. The Pakistani people deserve better. Unfortunately, PIA epitomizes everything that is wrong with Pakistan today. The system is broken.

TAILWIND
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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by TAILWIND » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:08 pm

Flyer1055, couldn't endorse more forcefully. The competence and standard of investigation of SIB is evident from the quality of their accident reports. Major accidents where hundred of lives were lost covered in 30 or 40 pages that too mostly copy paste from details of ac systems. No analysis, no research as to why something happened, just khana puri.
As you mentioned accidents in last 10 years, in my opinion given the size of airline industry and no of major accidents our record from beginning has been dismal. Pakistani aviation industry as a whole is in tatters.

fahadshakeel
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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by fahadshakeel » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:39 pm

Flyer1015 wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:53 am
No views should be silent just because it goes against the majority.


I was born in Lahore and moved to the United States at the age of 8 and am now an airline pilot for a major airline here. For aviation it is a night and day difference. In this country, we don't operate on "sub khooch theek hein" or "inshallah, Allah khair sallah." The last major US airline accident was in 2009 when a Q400 stalled and crashed outside Buffalo. The NTSB investigated and issued a very thorough report. In response to that accident, everything here was overhauled. We had new FAR 117 Rest Rules. Pilot hiring requirements changed from 250 hrs to 1,500 hrs (ATP rule). Stall profiles and training was changed. Those are just some examples. Since then, we've had a very safe aviation record with all things considered.

What saddens me is the track record of the last 10 yrs in Pakistan's aviation industry and the lack of any action to mitigate and stop the trend. In 2010 it was an airBlue A321 CFIT accident (38 page report released by the SIB). In 2012 a Bhoja Air B737 crash in Islamabad (SIB released a report). And in late 2016, the ATR crash that killed everyone aboard including Junaid J. In four months we'll come up on the 3rd anniversary of that crash and still there hasn't been any report published on the accident by the SIB. The sheer incompetence of the SIB is staggering. It is ridiculous! But, as the saying goes, "istara he mulk chalta hay." So in 7 years there were 3 major airline crashes, all completely fatal, and nothing changed in Pakistan's aviation industry. There is no holding something to account. Where's the ATR crash final accident report? What did the aviation industry learn there? What changes did they institute by law as a result of the 2016 crash?

Now this ATR incident happened and it's one more thing the SIB has to investigate and address. But the sheer incompetency of the SIB means nothing much will change. I can't comment on this incident Captain's training record or previous incidents since I'm not acquainted with any details, nor do I know anything in terms of her employment, nepotism, string-pulling. If those are true, nothing surprises me. The country runs on nepotism and favoritism. Not merit.

I'm glad everyone was safe and made it out alive from this ATR incident. But nothing has changed since 2010 when airBlue crashed. The SIB is incompetent and the CAA hasn't done anything to promote or advance safety. The Pakistani people deserve better. Unfortunately, PIA epitomizes everything that is wrong with Pakistan today. The system is broken.
I don't think that they didn't took any action after all those crashes. See the action in below pic:
http://iblagh.com/en/wp-content/uploads ... 745ac7.jpg

Joke apart; till the political quota & unions will stay alive I don't think that rules & procedures will be enforced. I used to work in CAA back in 2006 & I witnessed even the qualified and skilled people were being manipulated. Gradually they were getting rusty and were taking advantages of union's back.

SM
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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by SM » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:52 am

I spoke to a few contacts and have two unofficial updates from the internal grapevine:
  • PIA has been told that the cost of repairing the aircraft will be 60 to 80 crores ($3.75M to $5M). As such, within PIA, the aircraft is being seen as a likely write off.
  • The CEO is leaning towards relieving Captain Maryam Masood from her position at PIA. Colleagues have already advised Capt. Maryam Masood to resign before she is officially relieved.
As the investigation is still underway, the above information is preliminary, unofficial, and still subject to changes.
SM

ammad
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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by ammad » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:20 am

SM wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:52 am
I spoke to a few contacts and have two unofficial updates from the internal grapevine:
  • PIA has been told that the cost of repairing the aircraft will be 60 to 80 crores ($3.75M to $5M). As such, within PIA, the aircraft is being seen as a likely write off.
  • The CEO is leaning towards relieving Captain Maryam Masood from her position at PIA. Colleagues have already advised Capt. Maryam Masood to resign before she is officially relieved.
As the investigation is still underway, the above information is preliminary, unofficial, and still subject to changes.
Thanks for the Update. Looks like Aircraft will be write -off to provide spares to other Atr's in the fleet.
Fortune favours brave.

ammad
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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by ammad » Tue Aug 27, 2019 5:50 am

Abbas Ali wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:06 pm
Recently six PIA ATRs seen active on flightradar24.com.

ATR 42-500 registration AP-BHH

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ap-bhh

ATR 42-500 registration AP-BHI

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ap-bhi

ATR 42-500 registration AP-BHM

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ap-bhm

ATR 72-500 registration AP-BKV

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ap-bkv

ATR 72-500 registration AP-BKX

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ap-bkx

ATR 72-500 registration AP-BKY

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ap-bky

Abbas
Thanks Abbas for your hard work. PIA website is still saying they have total 9 ATR's. Wonder what other three tail numbers are at ground?
Fortune favours brave.

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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by Amaad Lone » Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:12 am

PIA has been told that the cost of repairing the aircraft will be 60 to 80 crores ($3.75M to $5M). As such, within PIA, the aircraft is being seen as a likely write off.
Maybe it should be analyzed that parts of this aircraft (AP-BHP) are used to revive AP-BHN.

BHP obviously has very many parts that are still operational and could be used to bring the grounded and parted out aircraft back to life, is it possible to revive an aircraft after grounding it for 4 years??

Second the two ATR72s that are grounded AP-BKZ and AP-BKW, one of them was involved in an accident in Karachi when it hit the Shaheen 737, and that is probably a write off as well but what about the second one??

PIA has made a mess of its ATR42/72 fleet with one crashing on flight from Chitral, one crash landing in Lahore, and now one crashing landing in Gilgit and one grounded due to parting out. 3 left out of 7. ATR72 just induced 4 years ago, two are grounded out of five.
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A310
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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by A310 » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:11 pm

As I previously stated that let the relevant bodies investigate and decide, I am not going to comment on the action that will be taken against Capt. Maryam. But since one ATR 72 collided with a Shaheen aircraft during ground run test, what happened with those responsible? Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t the same Martial CEO of PIA at that time? Gotta say that he does have something against pilots because its clearly evident from the scheduling and duty time policies he is trying to implement. Before a keyboard warrior like the one in this particular thread writes, do verify your facts. Justice needs to be served across the board!