Never before seen photos of PIA's AP-BCP crash at Kathmandu

Share photos of PIA, Pakistani airlines, Pakistani airports and photos related to civil & military aviation of Pakistan.


User avatar
Abbas Ali
Site Admin
Posts: 48738
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:52 pm
Location: Pakistan

Post by Abbas Ali »

Btw, credit should be given to Nepalese Commission for releasing crash investigation findings to media, otherwise many people still would have been guessing what caused the crash giving birth to many conspiracy theories.

Abbas
Dil Dil Pakistan... Jaan Jaan Pakistan

See you at:
Image


nopy99
Registered Member
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:53 pm

Post by nopy99 »

AP-BGL wrote:Probably the cliff area that can be seen at the start of the video would be the area where ill-fated PIA A300 crashed... :?: I can't spot any other area where an aircraft can hit. Correct me if I'm wrong.
It sounds as if one of the crew is under training. Near the beginning of the video they call out "DME 6.0 minimum is 6800".

According to reports that Abbas bhai has provided the PK impact was between 10 and 8 miles so right at the start of the video is probaby exactly over where the fateful impact happened.

Its a nice video but it it was maybe a couple of minutes longer it would have shown a similar flightpath flown and maybe the hill would be visible as well.

nopy99
Registered Member
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:53 pm

Post by nopy99 »

Abbas Ali wrote:Btw, credit should be given to Nepalese Commission for releasing crash investigation findings to media, otherwise many people still would have been guessing what caused the crash giving birth to many conspiracy theories.

Abbas
They may not have had any choice as there were foreign nationals involved and also in both cases they stated pilot error as causal factors.

I read somewhere than Nepalese ATC are trained in India. Can anyone confirm this?

User avatar
AP-BGL
Registered Member
Posts: 1944
Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:08 pm
Location: Islamabad

Post by AP-BGL »

nopy99 wrote:
AP-BGL wrote:Probably the cliff area that can be seen at the start of the video would be the area where ill-fated PIA A300 crashed... :?: I can't spot any other area where an aircraft can hit. Correct me if I'm wrong.
It sounds as if one of the crew is under training. Near the beginning of the video they call out "DME 6.0 minimum is 6800".
Nopy99, with due respect let me clarify that the video which I saw was without sound. I saw it on my office computer and you know there are no speakers attached normally.

Even if there were any speakers, I wouldn't have been able to understand the usual aviation language used by the pilots.
Adnan

nopy99
Registered Member
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:53 pm

Post by nopy99 »

No problem Adnan bhai.

Would it be possible for some forum member to provide a brief commentary on the youtube video and also the differences in the two charts?

It would benefit us who do not know how to read charts and understand usual flight deck communications.


Thanks

SM
Registered Member
Posts: 266
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:49 am

Post by SM »

nopy99 wrote:No problem Adnan bhai.

Would it be possible for some forum member to provide a brief commentary on the youtube video and also the differences in the two charts?

It would benefit us who do not know how to read charts and understand usual flight deck communications.


Thanks
I do not have speakers here so I can't really go over the whole flight deck exchange, however, from what I remember when I last saw that video when it was first posted, the crew was primarily doing altitude checks at different approach fixes.

Each approach fix is a point marked on the approach course. In this case, each of these fixes has a particular altitude above sea level associated with it. Crossing these fixes at these altitudes ensures that sufficient terrain clearance is maintained as well as an approach slope that is appropriate and safe.

Flying below these prescribed altitudes can lead to lack of terrain clearance and the result can be similar to what happened to the PIA Airbus fifteen years ago. Flying higher can result in steep approaches that may be unsafe as well.

The two charts are presented below for comparison:

Image

Image

As you can see there are many differences. Some of the significant ones are as follows:

- The new chart has a clearly presented "minimum altitude" table for each approach fix.

- If you look at the descent profile in the old and the new chart, the new chart has altitude for each fix listed right above the actual fix. In the old chart, the altitudes are listed between two fixes. Because of this, it is possible for crew to assume the altitude for the next fix as the altitude for the current fix. This can lead to loss of terrain clearance and a CFIT (controlled flight into terrain).

- The approach now always begins with intersection NOPEN (16 miles) as opposed to position Sierra (10 miles from touch down). In the older chart, this seems not clearly stated and can be assumed as optional.

- The holding pattern on position Sierra was over quite dense terrain and thus relatively unsafe. They have removed this altogether from the chart.

- Notice the note on the chart itself. It used to say maintain 10,500' until established inbound on the final approach course. They have now raised it to 11,500 and require all pilots to begin approach at 16 DME i.e. position NOPEN.

- The radial on the missed approach procedure has also changed from 291 to 289.

- The newer chart is overall much "cleaner"; especially the descent profile. This makes it easier to understand and less likely to cause confusion.


If others can spot additional differences, please take the lead in listing them.

Regards,
SM

nopy99
Registered Member
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 4:53 pm

Post by nopy99 »

Thanks for this detailed commentary.

I also noticed that the peak directly under the approach path at D 10 is not marked at all on the old chart. maybe its a poor reprodution or something was lost in scanning.

Surely this would have been the most critical peak to depict clearly on the chart.

In the new chart its is marked out clearly with the terrain profile contours.

User avatar
raihans
Registered Member
Posts: 4628
Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 5:09 pm
Location: Kuwait

Post by raihans »

thanks SM for the details

i have flown this particular approach in FS; it was first time that is why i was 2000' above the assigned altitude on each DME check therefore managed to touch down and will try again and again ....
Raihan SR Bakhsh

flickr.com/photos/raihanshahzad
EY-B77W, A345, A320, A319, EK-B773, B77W, A388, FZ-B738, GF-L1011, B732, A332, A320, A319, KU-A343, AB6, A310, A320, NL-A320, PK-B707/720, B733, B772, B77L, AB4, A310, A320, QR-A320, A321, A333, A359, A35X, B77W, B788, WY-B738, B739, A333

User avatar
iqbal
Registered Member
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 5:34 pm
Location: London, UK

Post by iqbal »

nice info from the chart, there is however a hold at NOPEN if you look at the arrival chart for Khatmandu.

The arrival has two transitions, either from SIMARA SMR VOR or waypoint romeo, 24 miles before nopen. at both SMR and ROMEO, the chart states FL150.

There is also a warning statting "Do not descend below minimum safety profile"
Iqbal Malik
------------------------------------------
Image

inducedrag
Registered Member
Posts: 1026
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:31 am
Location: n24e57

Re: Never before seen photos of PIA's AP-BCP crash at Kathmandu

Post by inducedrag »


inducedrag
Registered Member
Posts: 1026
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:31 am
Location: n24e57

Re: Never before seen photos of PIA's AP-BCP crash at Kathmandu

Post by inducedrag »