PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

[3DeltaDelta]

Anybody know if PIA crew practices CRM (cockpit resource management), i.e. special training that allows first officer to challenge captain without fear of retribution? Its more of culture and practice training and has been around for some time. In the 90s, some airlines in Japan and Korea were weak in this regard and they traced them to the fact that the first officer was too respectful to the captain and not assertive enough and instituted CRM training for all its crews.

I say this as since a captain is human and may have had poor judgment in diving own the runway like a WWII torpedo bomber and crossed the threshold at 200kts, why did the first officer not challenge? Two people fell to the same trap is highly unusual.

Also, why would the A320 audible alert not gone enough when the aircraft was too low and the automatic retraction took place at high-speed. Is it a one time warning or a continuous one? Some single engine props I have flown with retractable gear, the alarm is quite loud and continuous. Is A320 alert just a one time audio annunciation or a constant one? Both crew members ignoring an continuous alarm seems unusual.

[3DeltaDelta]

my friend captain told me that how how how how did Late Capt Sajjad Gul flew 6 six times from Karachi to Lahore to Karachi on 16th 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th, 21st May everyday he was good well done took off & landed BUT How how how did Capt Omar Malik flew PK8232 AP-BLD from Multan to Muscat to Lahore on Thursday 21st May 2020. Maybe perhaps any technical issues on AP-BLD? AP-BLB, AP-BLC, AP-BLD different from other AP-BLA to BLZ? unknown happened. Maybe perhaps PIA forced Capt Sajjad Gul fly everyday when other pilot unavailable due to COVID19? Have PIA ask Capt Omar Malik for any technical issues on AP-BLD on 21st May 2020? everyone do NOT understand why AP-BLD something wrong to crash?

The question still remains...if there were problems or technical issues, why did the pilot not tell the ATC? Why did they decide to come in high and fast?
Unless ATC is completely lying and CVR shows a completely different narration, even a technical issue does not explain this bizarre behavior. Then again, there were no issues in AirBlue and Bhoja or that PK flight to Kathmandu in the 90s. Why would AirBlue pilot tell ATC he could see the runway when clearly he couldn't and was way off? Why did he decide to follow a non-standard procedure in such weather with low cloud cover? His CVR showed he was utterly confused but still reluctant for a go-around.

Is there a heavy penalty or peer shaming associated with such?

Its not likely there was an issue on first landing attempt. The bigger question is why after the first attempt they didn't declare emergency and climbed out normal with a long circuit. A plane engine losing its power must have been noticeable. And given they had no power, why drop the landing gear then and induce drag that would reduce further the chance of making it to the runway.

And once crew knew there was no power, why point nose up ( as it shows on the crash video) and assure a stall and hit the ground. Every student pilot is taught not to pull nose up in case of power loss and when close to the ground. You lose options real fast.

The landing gear and nose pull accelerated the drop on the houses. Without the gear down, they could have made the runway possibly. Without nose up. they may have made the field of Malir Cant next to the homes and had some control of the crash vs. falling like a rock.

[arshad.altaf]

Crashed plane’s pilot didn’t follow ATC instructions: CAA

• French air safety body says data of black box successfully downloaded
• Palpa regrets release of limited details about crash, says it is tantamount to influencing ongoing probe


https://www.dawn.com/news/1561122/crash ... ctions-caa

[Shershah Ahmed]

Pakistan CAA has written a letter to PIA on the subject of "non-compliance of air traffic control (ATC) instructions by pilot in command (PIC) of PIA flight PK8303".

Violation

Non-compliance of ATC Instructions by PIC PIA8303

Duty approach controller raised a non-compliance report in respect of captain of PIA flight PK8303 on 22nd May, 2020. PIA flight PK8303 Airbus A320 (aircraft registration AP-BLD) from Lahore to Karachi was cleared to altitude 3000 feet while entering control zone (25 nautical miles) but observed high on approach at MAKLI, the same was communicated to the pilot who reported comfortable for descent. Later at 10 nautical miles pilot was again cautioned by offering an orbit to adjust his high altitude for approach which he did not accept by saying comfortable with descent.

Approach controller further added that:

"When aircraft was 7 nautical miles final from touchdown Runway 25L, passing 5200 feet, it was relatively high as per the standard approach profile. I instructed pilot twice to discontinue approach and turn left heading 180 which he did not comply and continued to proceed towards Runway 25L with his own discretion to establish Instrument Landing System (ILS) approach Runway 25L. I again warned aircraft at 5 nautical miles from touchdown which was passing 3500 feet. At 4 nautical miles, aircraft was observed approaching 1300 feet with ground speed of 250 knots. Aircraft was observed passing runway threshold at ground speed of 210 knots."

Later, PK8303 lifted up from surface of the runway and crashed over Model Colony while attempting second approach for Runway 25L.

For information and further necessary actions to ensure avoidance of re-occurrence of such situations in the interest of flight safety.



Abbas

I don't get it. The ATC conversation is out there for everyone to listen to. As far as I recall the ATC gave the all clear to land to the Pilot. If ATC did not agree then they should not have given the clearance to land to the Pilot and the Pilot would be force to make amends.

I agree with you. While the ATC doesn’t really have any substantial role in the crash, their negligence and such a stupid notice should be accounted for. If this notice is to be believed, then the controller should also be questioned for giving landing clearance. Its been drafted as if the pilots proceeded to land without getting approach/landing clearance. I feel like all this drama is just to save the controller because he didn’t give the gear check warning or perhaps because he didn’t pass on the runway contact observation to the crew. As a separate matter the controllers should be given more training and also the authority to not clear hot and high aircraft for approach/landing.


Why was Capt. Sajjad assigned this flight for 6 consecutive days? Why has the practice of management harassing pilots into operating flights on short notices not stopped? Why the hell does crew scheduling assign crew to flight only one day before departure? This adhocism needs to stop. Workload needs to be distributed evenly? Why aren’t more pilots hired? Because the CEO wanted to create artificial shortage to accommodate fired Shaheen 320 Captains? Why does engineering ask the crew to take the aircraft on MEL? Why isn’t the problem rectified? To avoid delays they’ll be held accountable for? Increasing retirement age is also not on their agenda because contractual job is literally slavery and they harass these pilots by threatening them to operate a flight or else their contract will be terminated. One 777 Captain has already been fired for refusing to operate a flight on insufficient rest. All these things take a mental toll. They’re humans not machines. Everyone should be put to task. It’s now or never. Structural changes are required else next time it’ll be a 777 with 400 pax God forbid.

All very valid questions, especially regarding scheduling, management pressure, lack of hiring (even after a known shortage of pilots) and lack of prompt maintenance (which is always hidden from the public thanks to A+ company PR). Unfortunately no one will put forth these questions in addition to ones such as 'why were they flying a high and fast approach'.

These and other important questions that are part of the chain of events leading to the accident will likely get swept under the rug, or be given regurgitated media sourced answers such as the age old "high employee to aircraft ratio" that even our courts use in passing judgements. Also its a bit strange for CAA to give out a non-compliance circular during an ongoing investigation, when their ATC controller supposedly saw a plane scrape a runway but nonchalantly asked if they were going for a belly landing and then blaming them for not calling emergency services.

Simply put, the entire structure of aviation in Pakistan needs to change, from the flying clubs, to the airlines and to CAA otherwise this will keep happening. Bashing PALPA and pilots is not going to accomplish change. People blame PALPA and pilots for being a mafia and state the whole bogus ATPL fiasco as if they printed those licenses out of thin air themselves. Yes a particular collection of pilots were involved in that wrong doing, but can someone remind me who the license issuing authority in Pakistan is, and whether there was an investigation into who issued those licenses or gave out those question papers?

[Abbas Ali]

Investigating authorities to also check whether Karachi Airport Runway 25L was immediately closed and checked to find any damage/debris due to runway surface scraped by PIA A320 engines'.

Preliminary report of the accident to be presented in the parliament and released to public by June 22, said Aviation Minister Ghulam Sarwar Khan in a press conference today.

Abbas

[Abbas Ali]

An engine, wing section and landing gear remain on roofs of different houses. Authorities to plan technique for removal/recovery of these wreckage pieces without damaging structure of houses and also without damaging any evidence related to the accident in these wreckage pieces.

All other wreckage pieces of the aircraft have been shifted from the crash site to Karachi Airport.

Abbashttps://historyofpia.com/forums/index.php

[fawad]

Why was Capt. Sajjad assigned this flight for 6 consecutive days? Why has the practice of management harassing pilots into operating flights on short notices not stopped?

As per Luqman, he was grounded by CAA 3 years earlier because of his excessive hours. I am not sure how true this is. Also, I am not sure management is "harassing" pilots into operating flights. It could have happened sometime, but my relatives in PIA tell me that many a time Pilots fight over flying hours (particularly on foreign tours) because they get paid flying allowance. More hours mean more money so some pilots actually fight for being given more flights.

[Abdulrafeysiddiqui]

Anybody know if PIA crew practices CRM (cockpit resource management), i.e. special training that allows first officer to challenge captain without fear of retribution?

https://ibb.co/6F2QxFC

[A310]

Why was Capt. Sajjad assigned this flight for 6 consecutive days? Why has the practice of management harassing pilots into operating flights on short notices not stopped?

As per Luqman, he was grounded by CAA 3 years earlier because of his excessive hours. I am not sure how true this is. Also, I am not sure management is "harassing" pilots into operating flights. It could have happened sometime, but my relatives in PIA tell me that many a time Pilots fight over flying hours (particularly on foreign tours) because they get paid flying allowance. More hours mean more money so some pilots actually fight for being given more flights.

He also said that this happened when he was a First Officer on 777 but he had been a Captain since 2012, first on ATR and then on A320 since 2015. So can’t really comment on the validity of that.

It is different for different equipments. There aren’t any foreign tours on A320 apart from the occasional slip patterns in Medina. That too for the pre Covid time.

Management constitutes of senior pilots, mostly B777 Captains apart from equipment chiefs and one or two other posts. The scheduling makes a roster but it doesn’t really cater for some circumstances. Lets say for whatever reason a pilot can’t operate a flight to Medina on monday, what they do is assign the flight to a pilot rostered for a flight on wednesday. Now they don’t move their arses till tuesday evening when its already too late to find a pilot for the empty flight on wed. The schedulers start calling pilots to operate flights(on many instances on less than 12 hours mandatory notice) and ask them to operate a flight. Since A320 doesn’t have many Captains in Lahore, the options are very few. When those few pilots refuse to operate the flight(within their right, could be mandatory off/insufficient rest/refused days off) the schedulers inform the management. Then someone from management calls one of the pilots and keeps on insisting/pushing until they agree. I have at least 30-40 accounts of this happening but obviously I have to regard privacy as well. The problem is why don’t the schedulers work on time? Why does it always come down to management calling in for favours? You have no idea about the politics and unsafe practices going on. It hasn’t really stopped since the crash. It is continuing.

In the previous month one pilot without Atlantic clearance was forced to operate a Toronto flight while another was forced to operate Toronto flight on 7 hours rest after positioning flight. If this Isn’t harassment then I don’t know what is. Blame it all on the pilots for all I care but it won’t do much as far as safety is concerned. Organizational flaws need to be identified. End all unsafe practices and PIA will become a better airline.

[umar744]

I wish ATC staff must always staff's eye to WATCH LOOK SEE DOUBLE CHECK all aircraft's landing gear open they learn bad experience from AP-BLD crashed also PIA learn bad experience to let pilot to stay & rest home take 2 or 3 days off after job duty after PIA forced Captain Sajjad Gul to fly everyday daily get very tired after 6th flight SAME like Korea ASIANA airlines pilot got tired reduced from 140 hours to 90 hours per month after ASIANA & KOREAN AIR crashed many times. PIA always used second hand aircraft NOT new brand after 2008 last AP-BID 77W. Please BANNED landing 25L but USE landing 25R only but take off from 25L. SAME like happened of Air France A340 crashed into YYZ also BOAC 707-436's engine lost after took off and straight away U turn back to safety landed but flame out. A320 unsafe fly and A320 is very dangerous cockpit but 737 is Forumla F1 cockpit. PIA's all 737-340 excellent service NEVER kill passengers also 747, DC10, A310 & DHC6 Twin Otter excellent. If I am owner of my airlines then I will NEVER buy A320, A330 but My favourite is Boeing 747SP and A350 and B747-8 and A380 and B787 NEVER crashed. today A359 & A35K & B788, B789, B78X, 74H, A318 excellent flight.
Please NOTE my retired friend Captain Qantas 744 said that same like QF1 747-436 VH-OJH accidentally crashed landed overran in BKK Bangkok last September 1999 it happened same like TG 744 HS-TGF skipped BKK it still out of service same like HS-TEE A333 written off in BKK. HS-THB A359 touch down field of Phuket in 2016. Singapore Airlines 744 9V-SPK crashed took off Taipei in October 2000. Emirates 777-300 accidentally crashed in 2016. but B747SP China Airlines dutch rolls overturn 360o degreed from 41000feet to 9000feet in 1985 managed safely landed SFO instead of LAX. If my own airlines then I will buy B747SP best flight for memory good aircraft.

[3DeltaDelta]

I wish ATC staff must always staff's eye to WATCH LOOK SEE DOUBLE CHECK all aircraft's landing gear open they learn bad experience from AP-BLD crashed also PIA learn bad experience to let pilot to stay & rest home take 2 or 3 days off after job duty after PIA forced Captain Sajjad Gul to fly everyday daily get very tired after 6th flight SAME like Korea ASIANA airlines pilot got tired reduced from 140 hours to 90 hours per month after ASIANA & KOREAN AIR crashed many times. PIA always used second hand aircraft NOT new brand after 2008 last AP-BID 77W. Please BANNED landing 25L but USE landing 25R only but take off from 25L. SAME like happened of Air France A340 crashed into YYZ also BOAC 707-436's engine lost after took off and straight away U turn back to safety landed but flame out. A320 unsafe fly and A320 is very dangerous cockpit but 737 is Forumla F1 cockpit. PIA's all 737-340 excellent service NEVER kill passengers also 747, DC10, A310 & DHC6 Twin Otter excellent. If I am owner of my airlines then I will NEVER buy A320, A330 but My favourite is Boeing 747SP and A350 and B747-8 and A380 and B787 NEVER crashed. today A359 & A35K & B788, B789, B78X, 74H, A318 excellent flight.
Please NOTE my retired friend Captain Qantas 744 said that same like QF1 747-436 VH-OJH accidentally crashed landed overran in BKK Bangkok last September 1999 it happened same like TG 744 HS-TGF skipped BKK it still out of service same like HS-TEE A333 written off in BKK. HS-THB A359 touch down field of Phuket in 2016. Singapore Airlines 744 9V-SPK crashed took off Taipei in October 2000. Emirates 777-300 accidentally crashed in 2016. but B747SP China Airlines dutch rolls overturn 360o degreed from 41000feet to 9000feet in 1985 managed safely landed SFO instead of LAX. If my own airlines then I will buy B747SP best flight for memory good aircraft.

This is not realistic or practical or international practice. A busy civilian airport with multiple arrivals on different runways every 120 seconds and where half the time weather may be IFR or at night, it is not a practice to be the catch-all for the pilot, co-pilot, and the dual/triple redundant systems on the aircraft. Their primary responsibility is separation and safety so two big pieces of metal don't end up in the same place. Once they start becoming the ground observer to be the lookout on aircraft systems on the runway, they have put their primary job at risk. Can you imagine a controller at LHR, FRA, DXB, or ATL doing this? Its not possible to do this from the tower.

If you assume that CAA trains its Air Traffic Controllers to international standard, then this is not a practice they are expected to follow. Karachi has almost all VFR condition arrivals, almost always on a single runway, and average arrival interval of 20mins + a day, so the theory would go, why should an NOT the controller do this. But its not. The PIC (pilot in command) is responsible for the flight, and is supposed to aviate, navigate, communicate and assess when to declare an emergency based on the situation he/she is experiencing. It is ATC's job to be at the pilot's disposal and help bring the aircraft back.

Next we will be thinking, the ATC should have the foresight to have told the pilot that if you have lost engine, don't drop your landing gear because you will increase drag. Not ATC's job. They are trained (and therefore paid) to the standard of keeping separation and control of airspace.

Some air forces still have this practice of having a ground observer do a final check

[3DeltaDelta]

What is the general professionalism of PIA pilots and what if any disciplinary actions get taken against them when they violate the rules? I agree that it is not fair to blame anybody in this situation till the final investigation is complete. The crew are owed that.

My question on professionalism stems from just 3 incidences that are in violation of norms (and regulations) from 2017 that were made public: Captain on flight from Europe took a nap for 3 hours in first class. Another crew allowed a woman passenger to enter the flight deck on a flight from Asia so she could post on social media. A 3rd incidence of a captain slapping a cabin crew member in Pakistan.

This is all in the same year, and is just the stuff that makes public news. If this is the sort of disregard going on for basic rules, procedures and there is no fear of enforcement, these things can eventually catch up and cause something more serious.

[faisal-777]

I see some really good posts in response to those saying ATC has a role to play or negligence in this incident. I cannot imagine why some people think that ATC had a role to play which apparently they did not play and this tragedy happened. I can only think of two reasons behind this suggestion:

1. Either you are pilot and feel it unfair to pin all the blame to pilots
2. Or you do not completely understand how all this ATC and cockpit responsibilities work

ATC cannot jump into cockpit and take controls. End of story.

[TAILWIND]

I see some really good posts in response to those saying ATC has a role to play or negligence in this incident. I cannot imagine why some people think that ATC had a role to play which apparently they did not play and this tragedy happened. I can only think of two reasons behind this suggestion:

1. Either you are pilot and feel it unfair to pin all the blame to pilots
2. Or you do not completely understand how all this ATC and cockpit responsibilities work

ATC cannot jump into cockpit and take controls. End of story.

A question; seeing the aircraft very high on approach (3500/5), instead of advising and offering a a left turn (presumably to come for another apch) can the controller (as per procedures) cancel approach clearance?

[Abbas Ali]

CAA asked to explain letter about pilot’s conduct prior to crash

Zulqernain Tahir

June 05, 2020

LAHORE: The government has sought an explanation from the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) for writing a letter to the Pakistan International Airlines (PIA), which suggested the pilot of the airliner that crashed near Karachi airport last month did not follow the instructions of air-traffic controllers (ATC), saying this was the kind of information that had to be provided to the inquiry board.

“We have sought an explanation from the CAA official (for writing a letter to PIA implying that the pilot of the PK-8303 flight did not follow the instructions of ATC). As long as the inquiry report is not finalised, the official in question should not have spoken up (publicly). Whatever the official/CAA had to say should have been told to the four-member inquiry board probing the crash,” said Minister for Aviation Ghulam Sarwar Khan at a press conference on Thursday.

The minister said that perhaps the CAA thought whatever was written in the letter was correct. “However, an explanation has been called in this regard,” he added.

The June 2 letter sent by CAA official Iftikhar Ahmed to the PIA’s safety and quality assurance department, while pointing out “non-compliance of ATC instructions” by the pilot of the ill-fated aircraft, had asked it to ensure that such a situation was not repeated in future.


CAA letter to PIA shown on news channels.

Source: DAWN