PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

[Hassan777]

@fawad, couldnt agree more. You've neatly hit the nail on the head and summed up the situation.

@A310, I think you missed the entire point by a good 4500 feet. The entire reason everyone is questioning palpa, since you quoted 661, is because of their power & influence to have prevented such things from happening in the first place. You question why the report wasn't released - you, I, and everyone on this forum knows palpa can pull strings to get that done in an instant - if the intention ever was there. Everyone with an iota of knowledge knows the pilot's were not at fault in that incident.

Barring the other associations, which themselves have done little to contribute to aviation safety, PALPA's role is being questioned (and rightly so), because of observations like this:

- being a political party allied with a certain worker's party first, and an association of public servants second

- having the political clout, connections & voice to have radically transformed the aviation systems in the country (more so than saep or atc guild which are treated like untouchables) and still have kept their focus on club houses, housing societies, and privileges.

- strong-arming management to influence recruitment policies instead of demanding effective SMS/QMS in the airline

- stepping in to "Save" members who have clearly violated SOPs, and more than once endangered passenger lives

- stepping in to save members who have cost the airlines millions in diversion costs, dumped fuel, and damage to aircraft

- stepping in to save members who fail checks & miraculously pass on the next go (without any retraining mind you)

- not allowing an independent safety board to be established in pakistan

- not ONCE in the past decade having conducted a public awareness event, or any safety seminar/conference with fellow colleagues from pia/caa (happy to be corrected on this)

- not having ANY regular safety publication or seminars (happy to be corrected on this)

- no anonymous record of safety incidents (which used to be in PIA's inflight safety magazine - wonder who shut that down?)

- forcing management to make certain people known to do favors and instructors and check pilots. Do tell me, who stopped multiple failure practices in SIM and why? Should that person not be held accountable for what happened here?

- failing to FORCE their colleagues repeatedly violating SOPs to face the consequences.

- failing to force the management to warn/retrain/ground/suspend ANY pilot continuing unstable approaches below 1000'

- failing to force the management to suspend/investigate/fire ANY crew member violating SOPs or professional standards, from garbage cleaners hiding drugs in the aircraft to engineers violating SOPs to unprofessional ATCs to cabin crew hauling undeclared goods.

Specifically in the context of this investigation, has been explained above, and said by the palpa reps on TV. I don't think there is any more need of crying wolf when you don't have a solid alternate outside your own club with the fear of your trainings & licenses being questioned.

You may talk about the AAIB not being relevant to investigating this crash, they are being accompanied by BEA, Airbus, and the engine manufacturers. What is your issue with them, as opposed to palpa, who has a proven track record of saving pilots repeatedly violating SOPs? What has palpa done in the case of the Gilgit captain or 786 radio silence? Do tell. What about the "instructor" who forgot the landing gear pins on a walk around in JFK? Zero. 0+0 = 0. Isnt it true that your fellow members are discussing "Palpa is politically powerful, we will not let the truth get out in this case" and "everyone say he (capt.) was fasting so they don't look at other angles"? You have just lost respected colleagues and 98 innocent people who had no idea what was happening, and the reaction is we are powerful, start building a religious narrative, and we will not let the truth out because it implicates all of you?

If you don't trust the air commodores, stop playing politics and file a case at the proper legal forum. Too bad your own gang's neglect and selfishness led to the failure in establishment of an impartial investigation board in this country. You are more liable here than the current AAIB, you had 70 years to establish a system, and YOU failed. Stop piling on your shortcomings on others.

As for PPE's not being provided, that is absolutely horrifying - but let me ask what you did earlier, how is that relevant to THIS investigation specifically. We would love to call out management on it, but then again, your gang made it a political war first. Actions speak louder than words. If management was at fault for not providing PPEs to pilots, management should be held accountable for every bit of their grave oversight. By similar logic, the heads should also roll for repeatedly violating SOPs and unsafe practices - be it sweeper, tech, driver, cabin crew, clerk, admin person, safety officer, pilot, atc, or director. If the first delusional sky god who violated SOPs and went below 1000' unstable had been punished and made an example out of - we all know the outcome in this case would have been most likely very different.

I don't know what PIA's social media policy is, but as public servants living and breathing on taxpayer money, you are bound to follow the rules whether someone is watching or not - that is called integrity. Don't like it? I'm sure lots of airlines will hire you, Unlikethe CURRENT captains and instructors who are sent home with a "thank you, no need to reapply" email and cant even survive a 30 minute basic intro with an HR assistant.

Your lot is responsible for the lives of up to 400 people at a time, when a split second decision counts. The public and your fellow aviators outside Pakistan hold you in high esteem - please start acting like it.

Exactly! PALPA can and should do more positive things for aviation in Pakistan rather than lobbying.

[riz]

I second you. PIA has become a nepotism and Qouta system infested lot of incompetent racists. Privatization is the need of time but no investor will ever take it in this shape.

[smhusain_1]

The problem to focus on is the ATC sighting of the aircraft on the first approach. Was the gear down or partially down, i.e., nose wheel not down? There is no record in the transcript of a gear problem being mentioned. Overlooking the height and the unstable approach, it is the tower controller's responsibility to visually sight the landing aircraft and not just give clearance to land. There would be witnesses besides him who may have observed whether all three gears were down.

You see, the absence of a warning from the tower controller about the landing gear not down, is very significant. People change stories to save their skins. Why did he not warn the aircraft that the gear was not down? 25 Left is closer to the control tower.

The alternative is that the gear was down in the first attempt and so nothing unusual was observed except a fast approach. To land without the gear intentionally is very hard to swallow; to land with a malfunctioning gear, possible. A go around was initiated by the pilot for reason unknown, maybe landing far down the runway, making stopping difficult. During the build up of speed and just prior to getting airborne, is it possible for the copilot to raise the gear without positive climb, in haste? This can then explain the subsequent engine scrapes on the runway as the pilot struggled to keep it flying and it touched two or three times. This idea was put forward on BBC Urdu from an aviator from Sharjah. I find it logical.

[TAILWIND]

As some forum members have pointed out, this procedure was perhaps introduced in Pakistan after the infamous B747 gear up landing at chaklala in 80s. In my opinion ATC checking/reminding pilot to lower or check gears down and lock is a military procedure. At most of international airports world over, ATC does not check/call "gears down and lock". Logically too, during night low visibility/bad wx operations ATC cannot physically check if a landing aircraft has the gears extended.
Moreover on an instrument approach, ATC may given landing clearance at 6 or 7 miles at once pilot calls established on ILS or LOC. Yes, tower should alert/warn an incoming plane acft if they see gears not down, but primarily it is the responsibility of pilot to ensure that his aircraft is properly configured for landing. Moreover, in a modern multi-crew airline category aircraft, there are so many warnings, alerts and checklists that relying on ATC for this important step seems comical.
Above notwithstanding, there still is a confusion as to who was handling this flight during first landing approach, touchdown and go around. from the transmission available to public, it appears that aircraft was with approach controller through out, and we know that apch ctrl are not in visual contact with acft??

[Abbas Ali]

On YouTube videos I see Dhaka Tower always asking cockpit crew of approaching aircraft to check landing gear down & locked.



Abbas

[A310]

As some forum members have pointed out, this procedure was perhaps introduced in Pakistan after the infamous B747 gear up landing at chaklala in 80s. In my opinion ATC checking/reminding pilot to lower or check gears down and lock is a military procedure. At most of international airports world over, ATC does not check/call "gears down and lock". Logically too, during night low visibility/bad wx operations ATC cannot physically check if a landing aircraft has the gears extended.
Moreover on an instrument approach, ATC may given landing clearance at 6 or 7 miles at once pilot calls established on ILS or LOC. Yes, tower should alert/warn an incoming plane acft if they see gears not down, but primarily it is the responsibility of pilot to ensure that his aircraft is properly configured for landing. Moreover, in a modern multi-crew airline category aircraft, there are so many warnings, alerts and checklists that relying on ATC for this important step seems comical.
Above notwithstanding, there still is a confusion as to who was handling this flight during first landing approach, touchdown and go around. from the transmission available to public, it appears that aircraft was with approach controller through out, and we know that apch ctrl are not in visual contact with acft??

It is rightfully said that the final responsibility is with the aircraft Captain. However, it’s not like atc doesn’t care about this in any part of the world. Check the Dhaka video Abbas has posted. A few years ago we were approaching MAN and the Capt had decided to take the gears a bit late due to a limitation and the tower controller almost screamed that our gears are not down. So they do look out for this at times

[umar744]

PIA's old former Boeing 737-340 number one no.1 safest never kill passengers & crew it better than A320ceo rubbish bad luck for PIA.
Present B777 safest now.
1st Boeing 747
2nd Boeing 737
3rd A310
4th DC10
5th DHC-6 Twin Otter
6th Trident 1C
7th ATR72 (NOT ATR42)
but F27, 707, 720B, A300, A320, ATR42 rubbish.

[umar744]

On YouTube videos I see Dhaka Tower always asking cockpit crew of approaching aircraft to check landing gear down & locked.



Abbas

it Dhaka ATC good education well done job also Biman got new brand 787 they never buy 2nd second hand.

[Abbas Ali]

Investigators group photo with an engine of crashed PIA A320 (AP-BLD) apparently taken in-front of Shaheen Air aircraft maintenance hangar at Karachi Airport.



The crashed A320's wreckage is being arranged at Shaheen Air hangar for further investigation.



Shaheen Air aircraft maintenance hangar at Karachi Airport.

Abbas

[inducedrag]

On YouTube videos I see Dhaka Tower always asking cockpit crew of approaching aircraft to check landing gear down & locked.



Abbas

it Dhaka ATC good education well done job also Biman got new brand 787 they never buy 2nd second hand.

It was Ramadan everyone was fasting and SOP are man made not part of

[Abbas Ali]

A wing section of the crashed PIA Airbus A320 (AP-BLD) has been removed from the roof of a house and shifted to Karachi Airport.

An engine of the aircraft remains embedded on a house roof. A structural engineer will visit the crash site on June 1 to check whether it's possible to remove the engine without causing further damage to the affected house.

Remains of damaged/burnt out cars and motor cycles also removed from the crash site today.

Abbas

[TAILWIND]

It is rightfully said that the final responsibility is with the aircraft Captain. However, it’s not like atc doesn’t care about this in any part of the world. Check the Dhaka video Abbas has posted. A few years ago we were approaching MAN and the Capt had decided to take the gears a bit late due to a limitation and the tower controller almost screamed that our gears are not down. So they do look out for this at times

Indeed ATC if observes an acft approaching without gears down will and MUST advise the crew and even instruct a go around, please bear in mind that forgotten gear up landing is a very rare happening in airline operation. leaving aside technical issues (LOT B767, and a hungarian Tu-154), if i recall correctly PIA B747 is the only known case where a modern multi-crew airliners touched landed gears up. And that too was before ECAM/GPWS days.
Point to highlight is that modern airline l/g system is a complex and sophisticated system with a number of safeties, redundancies and back up systems. It is very difficult, if not impossible for crew to forget lowering gears.

[Abbas Ali]

Airbus A330-800 (aircraft registration F-WTTO) has departed from Toulouse Blagnac Airport as Airbus flight AIB1888 to Karachi.

On June 1, the A330 will depart from Karachi for flight to Paris Le Bourget Airport with the French team that took part in the investigation of PIA Airbus A320 (AP-BLD) crash in Karachi. The crashed A320's CVR and FDR will also be taken to Paris for data downloading/decoding by BEA.


Source: flightradar24.com

Abbas

[Abdulrafeysiddiqui]

Exactly! PALPA can and should do more positive things for aviation in Pakistan rather than lobbying.

If PALPA behaves then what point remains for its existence!

[Ronald_Arif]

On YouTube videos I see Dhaka Tower always asking cockpit crew of approaching aircraft to check landing gear down & locked.



Abbas

After listening to the ATC & Pilot conversation on PIA8303, it left no doubt that the old "Butt/Bhatti/Bajwa" factor was ominous; 'Yes Sir/No Sir' type terms being used, lack of acknowledgement of ATC's directives, you scratch my back I'll scratch your's.

This type of type of attitude may work well in an organization like WAPDA, Railways or PTCL. Where lives are involved the Pilot has to be very professional and assertive and of course accurate. The situation prior to this crash were contrary to any SOP with worldwide airlines.