PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

[umar744]

Pilots both did NOT inform cabin crew & passengers & ATC about landing gear problem or technical problem before 1st approach to KHI until ATC informed them "Belly landing" then pilots accidentally touch down and abort landing and took off climb then turn back to 25L. they know they guilty mistake faulty and their word "mayday" before crashed. They should study homework & prepare flight plan least 2 days before departure. last 35 years ago I sat jump seat saw cockpit''s took off and pilots forgot switch gear up after 1,000feet by I told pilots to switch gear up but they said 'thank you' also I saw pilots forgot switch flap from 10 to 20 then I told pilot switch flap to 20 and I told pilot switch landing gear down last 35 years ago but I forgot their name & I forgot date flight it long time ago. BUT new A320NEO better new tech than A320CEO. A320CEO crashed many times. Capt Sajjad Gul & F/O Azam both 'human error' same like simple two flights are 1) https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19880626-0 and 2) https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19900214-2

[Flyer1015]

7) it SAME like Emirates 777-300
it SAME like A320 Air France's first time crashed 1988
9) it SAME like Indian Airlines 2nd time crashed

These three crashes are independent and have nothing to do with each other.

I believed pilots both faulty 100% accidentally crashed because they both forgot switch landing gear down for 1st approach also they too late to turn immediately to 25R NOT 25L Capt Sajjad Gul & F/O Azam both "HUMAN ERROR"

Your first two words are I believe. Everything after that is opinion. NOTHING in Pakistan will change until the religious mentality and mindset change. Allah Allah khair salah does not work in aviation. Inka time tha mernay kah, Alla's will, etc.

After the ATR crash in 2016, PIA ramp employees actually ziba/sacrificed a GOAT on the ramp! As if that would somehow appease God and make crashes less likely to happen. People in Pakistan need to hold people accountable. I see how riled up people get when something involves religion, I've seen the crowds in the streets because the government executed a guy who shot a Christian politician. Where is this kind of anger against the government when it comes to aviation safety?

CAA, PIA management, every management role in Pakistan has been done by safarish and nepotism, NOT merit. Until that changes, you'll continue to have these kinds of crashes. 4 fatal hull losses in 2010-2020. PIA, airBlue, and Bhoja fleet total 50 planes. Losing 4 in fatal crashes means the country lost 8% of its entire fleet to crashes and deaths. This should not be acceptable. It is not acceptable that there is no crash report for the ATR crash that was almost 4 years ago.

People in Pakistan need to stop blaming kismet for crashes in aviation, and demand real change in aviation safety, regulations, and checks/balances in the entire industry.

[Abbas Ali]

May 22, 2020, photo of Emirates Boeing 777-300ER (aircraft registration A6-EGU) flight EK2682 from Dubai on short finals to Karachi Airport Runway 25L over crash site of PIA Airbus A320 (aircraft registration AP-BLD) in Model Colony.

Abbas

[Abbas Ali]

French team arriving in Karachi today also to inspect aircraft engines and runway.

The team will return to France on May 26. Maybe CVR/FDR also to be handed over to them for decoding in France.

Abbas

[Flyer1015]

Pilots both did NOT inform cabin crew & passengers & ATC about landing gear problem or technical problem before 1st approach to KHI until ATC informed them "Belly landing" then pilots accidentally touch down and abort landing and took off climb then turn back to 25L. they know they guilty mistake faulty and their word "mayday" before crashed. They should study homework & prepare flight plan least 2 days before departure. last 35 years ago I sat jump seat saw cockpit''s took off and pilots forgot switch gear up after 1,000feet by I told pilots to switch gear up but they said 'thank you' also I saw pilots forgot switch flap from 10 to 20 then I told pilot switch flap to 20 and I told pilot switch landing gear down last 35 years ago but I forgot their name & I forgot date flight it long time ago. BUT new A320NEO better new tech than A320CEO. A320CEO crashed many times. Capt Sajjad Gul & F/O Azam both 'human error' same like simple two flights are 1) https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19880626-0 and 2) https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19900214-2

You told pilots to put their gear and flaps down because they forgot? I don't think so. The A320NEO being better technology compared to A320CEO? Have you flown these planes to make comments like these? Saying the A320CEO crashed many times is not a fair comparison considering the first A320 flight was in the 1980s and the first NEO flight was after 2010.

[Abbas Ali]

According to air traffic control report excerpts quoted by a number of news channels:

At least two times air traffic control asked cockpit crew to reduce altitude and then advised them to cancel landing approach. The aircraft did not cancel landing and with retracted landing gear touched Runway 25L surface at 4,000 feet from threshold. The runway is 10,000 feet long.

The communication between cockpit crew and approach radar during this landing approach does not mention any problem with aircraft's landing gear.

https://urdu.geo.tv/latest/222235

Abbas

[ab7]

At least two times air traffic control asked cockpit crew to reduce altitude and then advised them to cancel landing approach. The aircraft did not cancel landing and with retracted landing gear touched Runway 25L surface at 4,000 feet from threshold. The runway is 10,000 feet long.

Abbas

I wouldn't be very comfortable clearing an aircraft to land under such circumstances.

[A310]

Pilots both did NOT inform cabin crew & passengers & ATC about landing gear problem or technical problem before 1st approach to KHI until ATC informed them "Belly landing" then pilots accidentally touch down and abort landing and took off climb then turn back to 25L. they know they guilty mistake faulty and their word "mayday" before crashed. They should study homework & prepare flight plan least 2 days before departure. last 35 years ago I sat jump seat saw cockpit''s took off and pilots forgot switch gear up after 1,000feet by I told pilots to switch gear up but they said 'thank you' also I saw pilots forgot switch flap from 10 to 20 then I told pilot switch flap to 20 and I told pilot switch landing gear down last 35 years ago but I forgot their name & I forgot date flight it long time ago. BUT new A320NEO better new tech than A320CEO. A320CEO crashed many times. Capt Sajjad Gul & F/O Azam both 'human error' same like simple two flights are 1) https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19880626-0 and 2) https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 19900214-2

People like you piss me off when they write with such conviction when in fact they can’t even understand the sequence of events. I’ve been very active on this thread and will refute your claims. And I don’t want to sound derogatory or something but please try to phrase your posts in a better manner or ask someone to write them for you since it is difficult to comprehend them. With all due respect, that is.

You have written “belly landing” and touchdown after that. YOU’RE WRONG! ATC only asked them if they’re coming in for a belly landing only after they informed them that “we’ve lost engines”. That was the second approach attempt not first.

“they know they guilty mistake faulty and their word "mayday" before crashed”

Explain this again? If you use strong words like ‘guilty’ and ‘faulty’ make sure your message is clearly delivered. This broken english only worsens your case, sir.

Flight plan isn’t only dependent on waypoints so it is impossible to prepare it a couple of days before. It takes into account weather and NOTAMS as most flights have more than one route available. Although that is not the case for LHE-KHI still it is not possible to separately prepare it way before the flight just for a particular sector. Besides what does flight plan have to do with all this?

Even if you reminded them a couple of times, it doesn’t really mean you saved it from a tragedy. My humble opinion states no matter how expert you are, jump seat occupants apart from the operating crew, should remain quite. You can distract the pilots. Not worth it.

Don’t take the name of the pilots and say its a “human error”. In the bigger picture you are a NO ONE in this investigation. You don’t have the facts to write such strong statements. All of us here can just speculate and we should do that with respect and be humble while doing it.

[Aphelion]

It is extraordinary that the plane was able to perform a go around after presumably hitting both engines on ground. Is there any parallel like that in history?

There was an incident in Greece when the crew of a Malev TU154 forgot to lower the landing gear and were able to perform a go around after the aircraft made contact with runway and skidded on its belly for a while.

https://www.flightglobal.com/malev-tu-1 ... 48.article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mal%C3%A9v_Flight_262

[Inam855]

@Flyer1015, I dont know why you have started debating religion, but airplanes are christened, adorned with "Allah protect you", and various other cultural/traditional rituals (I've seen examples from India and Thailand) are a regular happening. Not sure what your point there was, but you rightly add concerns about the general state of the aviation industry, challenges of nepotism, and blaming kismet. It's a very real social and cultural issue that has made its way into every line of work in Pakistan. I also believe you missed a JS B1900 on your list. There are so many extreme examples of incompetence at all levels from clerks to directors that I kid you not, when I narrate some incidences to my colleagues they think I am joking. Take the example of a certain pilot, who "forgot" to remove the gear lock pin on a walk around, costing the airline millions in fuel and a diversion - he was promoted to instructor for this act of professionalism and now teaches people to become (hopefully) better pilots. The situation has deteriorated to a point where you can either die of depression or laugh and join the lunacy, and everyone seems to be taking it in stride.

@A310, you have articulated your points well. No single person can or should be blamed. Unfortunately, I raise the question what the industry veterans have been doing for years in terms of enhancing aviation safety. Its no secret that in every recent incident/accident the blame falls squarely on the (unfortunately deceased) pilot/s. Reports are never usually made public, recommendations are subpar at best.The systematic shortcomings, maintenance issues, management pressures, training failures, lack of any punitive action following non-adherence to SOPs, and questionable hiring practices are all parts of the problem and must be addressed, but we don't even acknowledge them. PALPA seems to be run well and has significant political clout, perhaps it should take up a reform of the safety investigation & reporting system. It is up to all aviation professionals to do what ever little or more they can to rectify this system, because in the current way it is set up, its only a matter of time before the next one - and the blame will squarely fall on the deceased, again.

Finally, I'd like to add - and I may be wrong here - but the text phrasing by umar744 appears to be a speech to text device, so I'd request some consideration/accommodation.

[Charliedelta11]

And I don’t want to sound derogatory or something but please try to phrase your posts in a better manner or ask someone to write them for you since it is difficult to comprehend them.

You are sounding derogatory here if i may. I am all for you questioning the content of his message but it is unacceptable to throw shade on his delivery. Even if you dont know anything about umar744, we are here to debate aviation and not the english language. If you do not understand his message, ask for a clarification. It is inappropriate to begin putting him down for his text.

[SM]

And I don’t want to sound derogatory or something but please try to phrase your posts in a better manner or ask someone to write them for you since it is difficult to comprehend them.

You are sounding derogatory here if i may. I am all for you questioning the content of his message but it is unacceptable to throw shade on his delivery. Even if you dont know anything about umar744, we are here to debate aviation and not the english language. If you do not understand his message, ask for a clarification. It is inappropriate to begin putting him down for his text.

Yesterday, user @A310 called me names and asked me to "shoot" myself. Today he's subjecting user @umer744 to a similar tone.

@A310: we are all here to discuss aviation in a socially acceptable manner. Having said this, I can assure you that had you known me in person you would have thought at least a few times before threatening me. On forums like these, you never know who you are talking to. Anonymity is fine but that doesn't mean indecent behavior can't result in a surprise. Take this as an advice or a warning - it's your call.

[umar744]

Hopefully CCTV inside ATC staff responsible who cancel pilots to first landing? But wait till Airbus A330neo-800 team get info inshallah

[umar744]

I think better any ATC staff suspended and go to court because ATC staff FAULTY forgot tell pilots to land Runway 25R right NOT 25L left because of many building near Runway 25L BUT it NOT one in ATC Karachi airport but it many other different countries ATC staff mistake communicate problem with pilots. BUT there TOO late for pilots after crashed died but better ATC staff go to court but many witness of public outside airport and need witness of any KHI airport staff. I wish KHI should install CCTV during take off & landing.

Last 30 years ago my flight Qantas B747-300 approach to Sydney but Qantas 747SP disturb to took off without wait for my flight land but my pilots aborted landing and climb 500feet between Runway and 747SP then turn right keep away from 747SP then round back to landed then pilots apologised passengers about faulty between ATC and 747SP miscommunication.

Last 25 years ago my flight A321 DLH abort approach Frankfurt when USA 747 Cargo cross Runway to Taxiway then diverted to hamburg due to bad ATC and bad weather then my flight transferred to LHR from Hamburg instead of FRA.

Last 20 years ago my flight Swissair (closed down) aborted approached by ATC in Zurich airport and round hold 45 mins then tried to landed safely.

last 26 years ago my flight PIA 747 aborted approach Moscow when Aeroflot A310 approached landing then round back to landed safely then my pilots questioned Aeroflot pilot why same time approach? they said confused communicate with ATC.

NOBODY blame PIA A320 pilots because ATC word "available for both Runway 25L & 25R" but PIA pilots tried to land out of control. CAA need improvement to install new CCTV inside ATC and install CCTV runway.

Maybe perhaps pilots switched landing gear down signal 'OK" but pilots did NOT know landing gear wheels not working open because AIRBUS did NOT install CCTV of landing gear BUT ATC staff did NOT film or photo of PIA A320 touch down but outsider airport people film & photo of PIA A320 full proof. Maybe perhaps ATC staff afraid & avoid court & job loss?

[Abbas Ali]

^ ATC told PK8303 that both runways are available to land when pilot made mayday call.



Abbas