What is the problem with Saudi airlines pilots?

[smarties]

Thanks for the insight Zuhair, i thought it might have something to do with weight.

[xuhair]

Thanks for the insight Zuhair, i thought it might have something to do with weight.

Smarties,
Sir, You are always welcome.

[R.F.]

Hello gentlemen,
Just to bring you in the tchnical loop vis-a-vis Reversers and stopping along with low level level off, Well Lahore like any other airfields has a SID (Standard Instrument Departure Procedure) and the one applicable to Saudia or any flights departing towards the South West is Lemom Departures, sometimes due to incomming traffic ATC instructs the airplane to level off at 3000 feet since that also happens to be the Minimum safety height in Lahore within 25 nautical miles. Saudia like any or all airlines has standard flight training procedures and has very less to do with individuals whims or tendencies. Therefore the risks involved are as much as for any other carrier.

Regarding reversers selection upon landing has unfortuntely very less to do with the weight rather all jet aircrafts base there stopping distance on brakes and ground spoilers that some one has refered to as airbrakes, reversers are a bonus. Secondly many European airports want what we call idle reversers due to noise reduction commensurate with safety.

Many airlines as a policy dictate idle reversers upon landing due fuel and engine life savings, however on a wet and contaminated runway reverse thrust is mandatory and accounted for, so other theories posted on this forum are mere conjecture only. Since the brakes are generally carbon brakes therefore the wear is propotional to the number of applications, which essentially means one steady application along with deployed ground spoilers is sufficient to slow down the airplane, however the revrsers are at the pilots disposal at all times in case if required.

[xuhair]

Hello gentlemen,
Regarding reversers selection upon landing has unfortuntely very less to do with the weight rather all jet aircrafts base there stopping distance on brakes and ground spoilers that some one has refered to as airbrakes, reversers are a bonus. Secondly many European airports want what we call idle reversers due to noise reduction commensurate with safety.

Many airlines as a policy dictate idle reversers upon landing due fuel and engine life savings, however on a wet and contaminated runway reverse thrust is mandatory and accounted for, so other theories posted on this forum are mere conjecture only. Since the brakes are generally carbon brakes therefore the wear is propotional to the number of applications, which essentially means one steady application along with deployed ground spoilers is sufficient to slow down the airplane, however the revrsers are at the pilots disposal at all times in case if required.

Sir;
Thankyou very much for the useflu information. But considering the Law, Engine Reversals are Compulsory in any conditions not only on wet runways (yes this is more appropriate that the reversal has to be applied much before from the normal procedure). Reversals and Airbrakes are the primary method of decelerating. Its very surprising for me to hear that they are mandatory only in wet conditions. And yes, Weight of the a/c is the biggest criteria selecting the time and the duration for which the reversals are to be applied.

Regards,
Zuhair

[stylo4444]

Hmm...considering how Saudi pilots are regarded by many as some of hte best in the world...and Saudi Airlines is one of the safest airlines in the world...

Don't know what you're talking about.

[iqbal]

recently landing at Heathrow in a PIA 743 i noticed that only engines 2 and 3 were reversing whereas engines 1 and 4 were not engaged in reverse - it was raining and i saw a china 744 do the same - is there any reason for this ?

[R.F.]

Hi Xuhair! I am afraid you are dead wrong in your assesment Reversers are a bonus, if you care to have alook at basic performance (JET)once again stopping distance is calculated on the basis of brakes and ground spoilers ONLY. If you're a airline pilot then i suggest have look in your respective aircraft's MEL that should shed some light on the premise of Reverse thrust, just for information No reverser is a 'GO' item except when you're departing or arriving on a WET or CONTAMINATED surface where it's mandatory and only ONE Reverse thrust is taken into account for twin engine jets such as a A310/300-600 ,B777,B767, and the Airbus family barring the A340's/B747. You could confirm this from any source including your equipment TRE.

Weight of the aircraft determines the inertia factor only, which is once again ONLY and ONLY based on brakes and ground spoilers on a given day within the stipulated reaction time (FAA)which states that minimum stopping distance is achieved when the brake pedals are fully depressed or in the event autobrake RTO/MAX mode is used, reversers are and will remain a bonus meaning not accounted for in the calculation of the stopping distance, however we cannot undermine their importance in the decelaration process during a high speed REJECT or landing. Hope that sheds some more light on the subject.

Many thanks!

[Adnaan786]

Yes you're right - the aircraft is capable of stopping without reversers, but this is only an added safety factor and is not a recommeded practice. Yes, if you're operating on a very long runway then you might not need reversers, but I think you'll agree that this is not that common. In the real world you will use reversers most of the time.

In the performance calculations you disregard the use of reversers because you always assume the worst scenario. Again this is a safety factor.

As iqbal mentioned, the 747 and the A380 only use the 2 inboard engines for reverse thrust. This is because they have very powerful engines, and also because their breaks and spoilers are also very efficient.

[xuhair]

Hi Xuhair! I am afraid you are dead wrong in your assesment Reversers are a bonus, if you care to have alook at basic performance (JET)once again stopping distance is calculated on the basis of brakes and ground spoilers ONLY. If you're a airline pilot then i suggest have look in your respective aircraft's MEL that should shed some light on the premise of Reverse thrust, just for information No reverser is a 'GO' item except when you're departing or arriving on a WET or CONTAMINATED surface where it's mandatory and only ONE Reverse thrust is taken into account for twin engine jets such as a A310/300-600 ,B777,B767, and the Airbus family barring the A340's/B747. You could confirm this from any source including your equipment TRE.

Weight of the aircraft determines the inertia factor only, which is once again ONLY and ONLY based on brakes and ground spoilers on a given day within the stipulated reaction time (FAA)which states that minimum stopping distance is achieved when the brake pedals are fully depressed or in the event autobrake RTO/MAX mode is used, reversers are and will remain a bonus meaning not accounted for in the calculation of the stopping distance, however we cannot undermine their importance in the decelaration process during a high speed REJECT or landing. Hope that sheds some more light on the subject.

Many thanks!

Hello R.F Bhai;
Thanks for all the correct info. I anit any pilot, just started off my training. this was I asked one of the airlines pilot currently flying in emirates ( a guy known to me). PIA pilots had so what the same answer for this. I guess then they must be wrong or would not have understood my question clearly ( but it was nohing hard in understanding it). I have no MEL to look into, but still thanks alot for the info.

Regards,
Zuhair

[R.F.]

Yes Adnan, in aviation all is based on worse case sceneario's, however the intial post was on the selection of reverser along with the Saudia training aspect which required some light shedding. In the real world as you refered to depends on the airline policy, brake efficiency are the same on every modern jet i.e. carbon brakes capable of absorbing much more then thier metal counterparts.

Common practise commensurate with safety as per the dictates of the airline SOP followed by the US and European carriers including EK,QR,EY,KU,SV,SQ and the list goes on is idle reverse as long as safety is not jepordized which means all aspects such as runway length, surface condition, coefficient of friction etc. etc. secondly one steady application of brake, this saves fuel and engine life.

Xuhair, no problem friend inshallah if you've started your training then you will be reading all what has been discussed soon.