PIA Grounds Pilots for Landing Aircraft on Wrong Runway at Lahore Airport

[A310]

While the error was initiated by the cockpit crew - there were many instances on which the mistake could have been caught. On part of the crew - negligence on more than one occasion since they read back all the calls correctly mentioning 36R. You recheck the ILS frequency, you have the runway appearing on ND etc.

Now, coming to the ATC - he gave them a call asking at the end if the field is in sight and told them they're observed left of track. This call was given twice. Now the cockpit crew could have caught it here but given that they were at this point fixated for a while because of stress, diversion etc the controller should have ordered them to go around. If an aircraft doesn’t have the field in sight and you know they’re not aligned - just ask them to go around. Or was he waiting for a disaster to happen? In marginal conditions like this it’s a team work. He should have stepped up.

Nobody has learned from 8303.

[Usman123]

While the error was initiated by the cockpit crew - there were many instances on which the mistake could have been caught. On part of the crew - negligence on more than one occasion since they read back all the calls correctly mentioning 36R. You recheck the ILS frequency, you have the runway appearing on ND etc.

Now, coming to the ATC - he gave them a call asking at the end if the field is in sight and told them they're observed left of track. This call was given twice. Now the cockpit crew could have caught it here but given that they were at this point fixated for a while because of stress, diversion etc the controller should have ordered them to go around. If an aircraft doesn’t have the field in sight and you know they’re not aligned - just ask them to go around. Or was he waiting for a disaster to happen? In marginal conditions like this it’s a team work. He should have stepped up.

Nobody has learned from 8303.

Great analysis, there's a reason why aviation is the safest mode of transport in the world.
If these mistakes are unaccounted another incident could turn into an horrific accident.
Also these are the reason why there are two Pilots in the aircraft aswell to note if someone is doing a mistake.

If the ATC had initiated authority and orderd for go around of pk8303 results could have been different, similarly in this case if ATC was observing a error he should've ordered go around.

Both cockpit crew and ATC should be held accountable.

[b78709]

Clearly EASA audit did not pay attention to these areas of neglect. Now forget UK operations.

[faisal-777]

While the error was initiated by the cockpit crew - there were many instances on which the mistake could have been caught. On part of the crew - negligence on more than one occasion since they read back all the calls correctly mentioning 36R. You recheck the ILS frequency, you have the runway appearing on ND etc.

Now, coming to the ATC - he gave them a call asking at the end if the field is in sight and told them they're observed left of track. This call was given twice. Now the cockpit crew could have caught it here but given that they were at this point fixated for a while because of stress, diversion etc the controller should have ordered them to go around. If an aircraft doesn’t have the field in sight and you know they’re not aligned - just ask them to go around. Or was he waiting for a disaster to happen? In marginal conditions like this it’s a team work. He should have stepped up.

Nobody has learned from 8303.

Great analysis, there's a reason why aviation is the safest mode of transport in the world.
If these mistakes are unaccounted another incident could turn into an horrific accident.
Also these are the reason why there are two Pilots in the aircraft aswell to note if someone is doing a mistake.

If the ATC had initiated authority and orderd for go around of pk8303 results could have been different, similarly in this case if ATC was observing a error he should've ordered go around.

Both cockpit crew and ATC should be held accountable.

Can we stop dragging ATC into this? ATC job is to clear to land on appropriate runway, not to make sure two chaps highly trained and paid follow their instructions.

[Amaad Lone]

Clearly EASA audit did not pay attention to these areas of neglect. Now forget UK operations.

Why is everyone bent upon passing the verdict before an official inquiry and giving SWEEPING STATEMENTS LIKE FORGET UK.

first of all its PILOT ERROR, it happens around the world, yes its bad. But you cannot punish an entire airline for pilot error.

Singapore Airline 747 took off from the wrong runway and crashed and killing 83 people, did SIA lose its license for Europe and UK.

Please stop acting like aviation professionals and remain aviation enthusiasts.

[murtaza12]

Clearly EASA audit did not pay attention to these areas of neglect. Now forget UK operations.

Why is everyone bent upon passing the verdict before an official inquiry and giving SWEEPING STATEMENTS LIKE FORGET UK.

first of all its PILOT ERROR, it happens around the world, yes its bad. But you cannot punish an entire airline for pilot error.

Singapore Airline 747 took off from the wrong runway and crashed and killing 83 people, did SIA lose its license for Europe and UK.

Please stop acting like aviation professionals and remain aviation enthusiasts.

Classic whataboutism

"XYZ airline did this once in their entire history but they didn't get banned"

While I agree that the other users comment was blowing things out of proportion, let's not forget PIA's past mistakes, one of which is still fresh in everyone's mind.

I also find it quite amusing how PIA apologists say we shouldn't blame an entire airline, as if PIA management is completely blameless and were not aware of the 'completely legitimate' licenses and qualifications of some of their pilots.

[Amaad Lone]

Classic whataboutism

"XYZ airline did this once in their entire history but they didn't get banned"

While I agree that the other users comment was blowing things out of proportion, let's not forget PIA's past mistakes, one of which is still fresh in everyone's mind.

I also find it quite amusing how PIA apologists say we shouldn't blame an entire airline, as if PIA management is completely blameless and were not aware of the 'completely legitimate' licenses and qualifications of some of their pilots.

Yes you cannot blame the entire airline for pilot error. I am not a PIA apologist but would not go on PIA bashing also because a pilot made an error and without waiting for an investigation the aviation specialist of HOP are giving their verdict.

As for the 2020 crash that was tragic and what our former aviation minister did was criminal, only god knows what his intent was by declaring that over 250 Pakistani pilots have fake licences.

[A310]

Classic whataboutism

"XYZ airline did this once in their entire history but they didn't get banned"

While I agree that the other users comment was blowing things out of proportion, let's not forget PIA's past mistakes, one of which is still fresh in everyone's mind.

I also find it quite amusing how PIA apologists say we shouldn't blame an entire airline, as if PIA management is completely blameless and were not aware of the 'completely legitimate' licenses and qualifications of some of their pilots.

Yes you cannot blame the entire airline for pilot error. I am not a PIA apologist but would not go on PIA bashing also because a pilot made an error and without waiting for an investigation the aviation specialist of HOP are giving their verdict.

As for the 2020 crash that was tragic and what our former aviation minister did was criminal, only god knows what his intent was by declaring that over 250 Pakistani pilots have fake licences.

Very nicely put, Ammad!

[Airborne]

You are one of the very few aviation enthusiasts here who has always talked with good rationale and logic. Couldn’t agree more here with you brother.

Classic whataboutism

"XYZ airline did this once in their entire history but they didn't get banned"

While I agree that the other users comment was blowing things out of proportion, let's not forget PIA's past mistakes, one of which is still fresh in everyone's mind.

I also find it quite amusing how PIA apologists say we shouldn't blame an entire airline, as if PIA management is completely blameless and were not aware of the 'completely legitimate' licenses and qualifications of some of their pilots.

Yes you cannot blame the entire airline for pilot error. I am not a PIA apologist but would not go on PIA bashing also because a pilot made an error and without waiting for an investigation the aviation specialist of HOP are giving their verdict.

As for the 2020 crash that was tragic and what our former aviation minister did was criminal, only god knows what his intent was by declaring that over 250 Pakistani pilots have fake licences.

[Amaad Lone]

You are one of the very few aviation enthusiasts here who has always talked with good rationale and logic. Couldn’t agree more here with you brother.

Thank you. I have always tried to put forward good argument with pros and cons.

[Ash0707]

In 2023 there were 103 recorded wrong surface operations in the US that’s both a mixture of both departing and landing flights. It’s easily done but for calling for pilots to get banned is a little OTT in MY opinion. I also recall an incident in the UK where a plane departed LCY for an airport in Germany but landed in Edinburgh!! I mean how the hell can you mess that one up? Not saying it was right what happened but it’s not doing our airline any favours especially when we’ve just been given the green light for Europe. Then you’ve now got the Multan incident with the stolen phones, what next? May allah guide these people and be thankful they weren’t flying into Europe. Anyway trip to Multan see if they have my missing Pro Max 14

[TomcatTask]

Recently there have been incidents involving 2 Saudia aircraft that seem to be actually quite similar, although i'm not sure if the weather was the same. In both instances while on approach the aircraft veered off track and were alerted to it by ATC. Both reported GPS signal loss.

[AP-BGY]

It’s easy to blame and ground pilots every time. Lahore has recently been the number 1 area where GPS spoofing is taking place. The air traffic controller seemed to be sleeping when he allowed the plane to land on the wrong runway. Should have asked them to discontinue the approach and go around. The same issue was seen with PK 8303 where ATC did practically nothing to stop the aircraft from landing. It’s called a chain of events and everyone in that chain should be held accountable.

[b78709]

Though i am not surprised by PIA cockpit crew act since as to how they are inducted and its not hidden from anyone. Nonetheless landing on a cleared primary 36R Cat3 R/W for Instrument Approach is a straight in approach followed by ATC instructions/clearance along with Cockpit crew readback. I am unable to understand how can they miss it and commit such a big mistake which is a routine affair especially in IMC condition when Pilots stress level and attention is at its peak ! .

Saudis were landing on a foreign soil. PIA captains did it at a home airport. IMO, deserve much worse punishment than mere grounding.

[faisal-777]

Recently there have been incidents involving 2 Saudia aircraft that seem to be actually quite similar, although i'm not sure if the weather was the same. In both instances while on approach the aircraft veered off track and were alerted to it by ATC. Both reported GPS signal loss.

And Saudi pilots probably displayed more caution and did the right thing. Lets assume PIA pilots had the same issue as SV pilots had, difference in handling is clear.

This also makes me somewhat then understanding of why private airlines have opted to hire much expensive foreign pilots.

Both cockpit crew and ATC should be held accountable.

Cant get a grip on why we drag ATC into this.