PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

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Abbas Ali
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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by Abbas Ali »

Information on The Aviation Herald.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4ca97966

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Boomin Bomber IJ
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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by Boomin Bomber IJ »

Abbas Ali wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:10 pm PIA Press Release

The flight PK-605 flew from Islamabad for Gilgit on Saturday morning. The pilot skillfully in control landed the aircraft and all passengers were safe and no injury was caused to any one. The return flight to Islamabad took off with passengers after a delay of three hours.



Huh? The most probable cause seems to be the pilot error here! :oops:

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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by Boomin Bomber IJ »

Abbas Ali wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:00 pm Passenger video of Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) ATR 42-500 (AP-BHP) flight PK-605 from Islamabad overshooting runway during landing roll at Gilgit Airport on July 20, 2019.



Abbas
Did I fail to hear any 'signs' indicating reverse thrust was deployed after touchdown?

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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by TAILWIND »

Abbas Ali wrote: Sat Jul 20, 2019 8:10 pm PIA Press Release

...........

The flight PK-605 flew from Islamabad for Gilgit on Saturday morning. The pilot skillfully in control landed the aircraft and all passengers were safe and no injury was caused to any one. The return flight to Islamabad took off with passengers after a delay of three hours.
What a mischievously worded statement. As if same aircraft took-off again with a delay of three hours.
CEO PIA, Air Marshal Arshad Malik has thanked Corps Commander 10 Corps Lieutenant General Bilal Akbar and Air Vice Marshal Moeed Khan, Air Officer Commanding Northern Air Command for the swift and prompt support at Gilgit Airport, PIA spokesman concluded.
Why not thank local civil administration, and CAA???

Source: PIA Press Release

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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by SM »

At the risk of having my post removed by Abbas and/or getting flamed by other forum members for highlighting Capt. Maryam's unprofessionalism for which she's known within the pilot community; I would like to share a crude "analysis" based on the amateur YouTube footage posted in this thread.

Assuming that the video clip wasn't edited, the aircraft passed the second runway marker (on the runway 25 end) at 00:35 seconds into the clip. It then passed the first major taxiway to the right at about 00:39 seconds into the clip. These two points are marked on the satellite image below and the distance between them is approximately 2,028 feet.

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If this math is correct, the aircraft covered 2,028 feet in just 4 seconds. This means that the ATR under Maryam's command touched down at a speed of at least 507 feet/second. This is equivalent to 300 knots. In comparison, typical ATR 42 approach reference speeds are in the 95 to 113 knots range. A speed of 300 knots is at least a couple times higher than normal.

With no emergency declared in advance and no attempts to go around by the Captain or her F/O, in my opinion, Capt. Maryam, d/o of Lt. Col. Retd. Masood should be immediately dismissed. Her instructors and every simulator check pilot that has cleared her over all of these years based on external influence should be investigated and reprimanded as appropriate. Alas, this is asking too much from an organization as unprofessional as PIA.

Yesterday, 5,300 feet of pavement at Gilgit proved too short for this ATR commanded by Capt. Maryam Masood. The same runway has almost uneventfully handled thousands of F27 and ATR landings in the past. This $10M ATR42 will be written off and yet another nail will be added to PIA's coffin.

Unlike what many are being led to believe, this is neither gender discrimination nor based on hearsay. This is coming straight from her colleagues as well as professionals that understand this business all too well.
SM

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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by A310 »

SM wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:12 am At the risk of having my post removed by Abbas and/or getting flamed by other forum members for highlighting Capt. Maryam's unprofessionalism for which she's known within the pilot community; I would like to share a crude "analysis" based on the amateur YouTube footage posted in this thread.

Assuming that the video clip wasn't edited, the aircraft passed the second runway marker (on the runway 25 end) at 00:35 seconds into the clip. It then passed the first major taxiway to the right at about 00:39 seconds into the clip. These two points are marked on the satellite image below and the distance between them is approximately 2,028 feet.

Image

If this math is correct, the aircraft covered 2,028 feet in just 4 seconds. This means that the ATR under Maryam's command touched down at a speed of at least 507 feet/second. This is equivalent to 300 knots. In comparison, typical ATR 42 approach reference speeds are in the 95 to 113 knots range. A speed of 300 knots is at least a couple times higher than normal.

With no emergency declared in advance and no attempts to go around by the Captain or her F/O, in my opinion, Capt. Maryam, d/o of Lt. Col. Retd. Masood should be immediately dismissed. Her instructors and every simulator check pilot that has cleared her over all of these years based on external influence should be investigated and reprimanded as appropriate. Alas, this is asking too much from an organization as unprofessional as PIA.

Yesterday, 5,300 feet of pavement at Gilgit proved too short for this ATR commanded by Capt. Maryam Masood. The same runway has almost uneventfully handled thousands of F27 and ATR landings in the past. This $10M ATR42 will be written off and yet another nail will be added to PIA's coffin.

Unlike what many are being led to believe, this is neither gender discrimination nor based on hearsay. This is coming straight from her colleagues as well as professionals that understand this business all too well.

Oh my God! I reckon you’ve seen the entire video. You must have noticed that the touchdown was a normal one. Now do you know what would happen to an aircraft whose typical VREF is between 95-110 but on this particular landed at a speed of 300 knots? All landing gears would have disintegrated and much worse could have happened. You’re also saying that an Instructor on type who trains pilots every other day was so negligent on that day that she decided to make an approach at 300 knots. That’s virtually killing yourself. If you have so much problem with her then go to a court and file a case against her and do your math there instead of polluting others minds here.

Meri jaan our ATRs don’t even cruise at a speed of 300 knots. I wish this forum had people with better knowledge and etiquettes.

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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by SM »

In light of additional evidence, I'd like to correct some of the math posted in my previous post.

I have just learnt that Gilgit airport has repainted the runway markings since the satellite image posted on Google Maps from 2017 was captured. The markings are now what's shown in this photo: https://goo.gl/maps/yGwsmQzwkeQ2pcHc6 and each runway distance marking is separated by the standard 500-foot gap.

As a result, per my revised calculations, the aircraft touched down at the point marked "0" in the revised satellite image shown below:

Image

Consequently, per the video, it only covered 991 feet in 4 seconds (refer to video duration from 00:35 seconds to 00:39 seconds).

The revised math states, that the aircraft touched down at a speed of more than 250 feet/second which is ~150 knots. This is still 50% more than the desired vRef speed of 95 to 113 knots. The touchdown point was also 2000 feet from the 25 threshold which means that at touchdown, 40% of the runway was already gone. So a combination of 50% higher speed and a late touchdown by at least a 1000 feet was the recipe used by Maryam to cause yesterday's debacle.
Last edited by SM on Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
SM

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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by TAILWIND »

It is good to have an analytical debate on the occurrence, discussing various operational, technical and environmental aspects, yet we should not be too judgemental an blaming the individuals involved.
The pilots deserve to have opportunity to present their side of story. We should wait for the official inquiry to sort out the facts.

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Abbas Ali
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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by Abbas Ali »

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Safety Investigation Board (SIB) team is working at Gilgit Airport.

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Aircraft will be removed from its resting place after completion of investigation work at the site.

Flight operations continue normally at Gilgit Airport.

PIA Engineering team is also present with equipment for removing the aircraft from accident site.

Statements of aircraft's cockpit and cabin crew have been recorded by investigators.

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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by A310 »

SM wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:11 pm In light of additional evidence, I'd like to correct some of the math posted in my previous post.

I have just learnt that Gilgit airport has repainted the runway markings since the satellite image posted on Google Maps from 2017 was captured. The markings are now what's shown in this photo: https://goo.gl/maps/yGwsmQzwkeQ2pcHc6 and each runway distance marking is separated by the standard 500-foot gap.

As a result, per my revised calculations, the aircraft touched down at the point marked "0" in the revised satellite image shown below:

Image

Consequently, per the video, it only covered 991 feet in 4 seconds (refer to video duration from 00:35 seconds to 00:39 seconds).

The revised math states, that the aircraft touched down at a speed of more than 250 feet/second which is ~150 knots. This is still 50% more than the desired vRef speed of 95 to 113 knots. The touchdown point was also 2000 feet from the 25 threshold which means that at touchdown, 40% of the runway was already gone. So a combination of 50% higher speed and a late touchdown by at least a 1000 feet was the recipe used by Maryam to cause yesterday's debacle.
Your revised math sounds completely flawed as well. No sane pilot would make an approach at even 150 on an ATR and that too at one of the most difficult approaches in Pakistan. But again your expertise is based on a poor quality video made by a passenger. That shows you’re an integral part of the SIB. On another note, I’d love to tell you that an ATR requires only 2800 ft out of the total 5000 ft of the runway at Gilgit. While touching down at the threshold sounds safe, even if the pilots touch down after passing 2000ft the landing would be a safe one. But please continue with your criticism of one of the best commanders on PIA ATRs.

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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by Abbas Ali »

According to news sources:

* Investigation team has completed inspection of the aircraft at its final resting place.

* PIA Engineering team has begun recovery of ATR 42-500 (AP-BHP) damaged at Gilgit Airport.

* The aircraft is balanced with the help of cranes.

* Tomorrow it will be moved to paved surface.

* The aircraft's starboard side wing, right-hand side main landing gear and right-side/engine number two are badly damaged.

* PIA Engineering team will assess damaged suffered by the aircraft and submit report to airline's CEO Air Marshal Arshad Malik.

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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by Abbas Ali »

PIA ATR 42-500 (AP-BHP) recovery work at Gilgit Airport on July 21, 2019.

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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by SM »

A310 wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:12 pm
SM wrote: Sun Jul 21, 2019 12:11 pm In light of additional evidence, I'd like to correct some of the math posted in my previous post.

I have just learnt that Gilgit airport has repainted the runway markings since the satellite image posted on Google Maps from 2017 was captured. The markings are now what's shown in this photo: https://goo.gl/maps/yGwsmQzwkeQ2pcHc6 and each runway distance marking is separated by the standard 500-foot gap.

As a result, per my revised calculations, the aircraft touched down at the point marked "0" in the revised satellite image shown below:

Image

Consequently, per the video, it only covered 991 feet in 4 seconds (refer to video duration from 00:35 seconds to 00:39 seconds).

The revised math states, that the aircraft touched down at a speed of more than 250 feet/second which is ~150 knots. This is still 50% more than the desired vRef speed of 95 to 113 knots. The touchdown point was also 2000 feet from the 25 threshold which means that at touchdown, 40% of the runway was already gone. So a combination of 50% higher speed and a late touchdown by at least a 1000 feet was the recipe used by Maryam to cause yesterday's debacle.
Your revised math sounds completely flawed as well. No sane pilot would make an approach at even 150 on an ATR and that too at one of the most difficult approaches in Pakistan. But again your expertise is based on a poor quality video made by a passenger. That shows you’re an integral part of the SIB. On another note, I’d love to tell you that an ATR requires only 2800 ft out of the total 5000 ft of the runway at Gilgit. While touching down at the threshold sounds safe, even if the pilots touch down after passing 2000ft the landing would be a safe one. But please continue with your criticism of one of the best commanders on PIA ATRs.
You are right: "No sane pilot would make an approach at even 150" and "that an ATR requires only 2800 ft out of the total 5000 ft of the runway at Gilgit". However, we all know that 5,300 feet of pavement at Gilgit proved too short for "one of the best commanders on PIA ATRs". You have made my point. I no longer need to plead it with the intelligent readers of this forum.
SM

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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by Charliedelta11 »

How would the recovery process work in a remote airport like Gilgit? Since there is probably just a skeleton maintenance crew there, after the aircraft is brought onto some sort of paved surface, what exactly will happen to ascertain structural integrity and so on. Asking out of curiosity.
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Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by Abbas Ali »

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News channels are reporting that the aircraft will be moved to a hangar at Gilgit Airport on July 22. Does Gilgit Airport have a hangar?

PIA ATR 42-500 registration AP-BHO was repaired inside a hangar at Lahore Airport in 2010.

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Maybe a makeshift hood hangar tent to be constructed at Gilgit Airport to repair the aircraft (in case it's repairable) like this one at Chittagong Airport in East Pakistan to repair PIA Fokker F27 Friendship registration AP-ALX in 1966.

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