AirBlue to lease two used Airbus A321-200 aircraft

AP-BGL · Post by **AP-BGL** » Sat Dec 10, 2005 3:46 pm

AirBlue wrote:LOL ill have to disagree on that man....first and most important thing is the cockpit commonality so lets just forget about the experience think.......wide body.....hmm.....ED has ex-PAF pilots which had been flying the B707, C-130's and B737 (VIP Sqdn).....so that will not be a problem as well.....ED wont hire non pakistani crew...yea for training purpose ofcourse but not for ever....wen the airline started.....the pilots were gone for training about a month or more before the first flight.....same thing with the A330's.....right now they are concentrating on the A320 family and training the shaheen crew for that.....and will send the current best fit pilots for the A330.....mind you...pilots who do not qualify for the necessary hours on a A320 will not be sent to the A330....mostly the Capt.'s of the A320 will be sent to the A330's .... if required , again, the best fit F/O's will be taken in for that a/c

Nice explaination there Saad... Intresting to know A320 and A330 have the same cockpit but still there will be some experience that counts?

AirBlue · Post by **AirBlue** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 1:33 am

There is an 11 day training for converting onto the A330 from an A320...the experience is on the A320's ofcourse...

Charliedelta11 · Post by **Charliedelta11** » Sun Dec 11, 2005 12:38 pm

true..cockpit commonality does play a big part in all this but experience is so9mething that military aviationists do not have in the commercial airline world..there is a big differnece between flying a C 130 from islamabad to skardu and flying an Airbus 330 from Karachi to JFK...no matter how "LOL" you think this matter actually is..
and name oe airline that incorporated widebodies in its early stages....most start initially with narrow bodys and then build up on it..u just dont jump onto larger planes in 2 years my man..

AirBlue · Post by **AirBlue** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 1:36 am

Yea you are right that flying a C130 from Karachi to Skardu and an A330 to JFK is totaly different but not wen you are flying an A320 for 2 years between KHI-ISB/LHE/UET/PEW/DXB and you have enough hours...no matter how long you keep this dicussion with me on this Charlie, i know i will be able to continue wit hthe rightful matter which everyone knows is right...no one will even give you an A310 from a C130 without training but will do if they need to even if u r without experience

Charliedelta11 · Post by **Charliedelta11** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:47 pm

no one will even give you an A310 from a C130 without training but will do if they need to even if u r without experience

wait..first off..what does this last line mean ? but will do if they have to ?
so what ur trying to say is airbus wants to get rid of its A330's just to increase it capital inflow ?

i'd still say you need experience...two years of flying between KHI-ISB/LHE/UET/PEW/DXB is jsut not enough in terms of airline experience for acquiring a widebody.....

AirBlue · Post by **AirBlue** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:17 pm

no im trying to say that if an airline needs to operate wide bodies and needs pilots to do so...they will obv. acquire the best in the market...the best r the ones with the wide body experience but the ones which r not r the second best u know wat i mean....beside that

THIS IS FOR ALL THE MEMBERS READING THIS

till the A330's come, ED will be gettin an Airbus A300-600. Im not sure from where and how many in number but i will let you know as soon as i get to know something about it

Now, Charlie, here i must say it will be harder to train the crew on a A300 than on a A330. Why? reason being the cockpit commonality again. But, once they have thier hands on the A300, they will easily be able to train for the A330. See here.

From an A320 to an A330 - short haul plane to a wide body but cockpit commonality

From an A300 to an A330 - both are wide bodies but the difference is in the Stick and the Yolk.

Just trying to prove a point here that size doesnt matter

. PIA also aquired the B777's the B747's and all the wide bodies. At once the pilots there were also new to the planes. They did not have the wide body experience at that time but now are mashallah one of the best set crew in the world (PIA pics at MAN by Jidd are a proof to this statement)

If PIA were to get the A340's, some what the same case you are reffereing to would have been impplied here.

None of the PIA crew had ever flown the stick; all PIA a/c's have yolks. So, would Airbus give the A340's if they had purchased them? Would you care if a guy who has been driving a motorbike all his life comes and buys a car from you? I dont think so my friend...

Charliedelta11 · Post by **Charliedelta11** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:35 pm

true...but did PIA go and buy its 747's and other widebodies within its first few years of service ? (* lol..this is getting interesting..)..

see..the analogy is'nt that of a motorcycle and a car..more like that of a 24 wheeler and a motor bike..you jsut cant ask a guy to drive a 24 wheeler if hes jsut started driving a bike...

hmm...true..A300-600's are alright...flight decks the same as that of the A310...any idea where they'll be operating these heavies ? domestic or DXB ?

cheetah · Post by **cheetah** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:04 pm

The stick and the yolk does not require any major transition. Infact many pilots particularly from military back ground start from the stick and transition onto the yolk with ease and the same is true vice versa.

Operating a wide body aircraft requires considerable experience. One of the reasons why B747FOs were F27 Captains, which even though i found to be very ridiculous, was credible due to the fact that many FOs were uncomfortable with the big machine and the rate of mistakes on the flight deck was high. Now that the Average time per type is much higher and 747 FOs have far more experience the need is not felt and is very rightly gotten rid off.

So at the end of the day its not about flight deck comonality and operating procedure its about the right judgement call which is only acquired in terms of hours under the wing.

However as far as startup airlines are concerned. They just have to put their trust in the training and hope that the shit never hits the roof.

AirBlue · Post by **AirBlue** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 7:51 pm

i think the A300-600 is going to be for MAN for now

atmalik · Post by **atmalik** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:53 pm

cheetah wrote:However as far as startup airlines are concerned. They just have to put their trust in the training and hope that the shit never hits the roof.

very intersting arguments from both sides. i guess some one who is a much better expert on this than us can shed some more light on the whole topic. as the sayong goes "experience matters".

And as for the shit hitting th fan, lol. thats true for any or everone, case in point Southwest in Chicago a few days ago. The pilopt is a 10 year vetran of SW.

ord · Post by **ord** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 10:54 pm

AirBlue wrote:i think the A300-600 is going to be for MAN for now

This is a solid interim measure. A300-600s are available at dirt cheap prices right now and will help to keep cap ex low, during a period of high oil prices, which will allow ED to concentrate on A320 and A321 expansion at the moment.

Also, these aircraft are good for use on Gulf-Pakistan sector, as they give a combination of low CASM (due to low cap ex), high yields and high capacity a/c for use to destinations such as AUH, MCT, etc.

***********************************

Also Airblue, there should be a few (3 I think) A332s available on the market soon as EY have decided to return the leased Volair A330s (which are in excellent shape) and replace them with new A330s, which they expect to be delievered this year. A332s are, however, extremely pricey on the used aircraft market, as there is big gap between supply and demand, but could be used to places like London or Manchester.

Moin · Post by **Moin** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:06 pm

Don't forget, EK actually started out with a widebody (PIA AB4) and wasted no time in upsizing themselves.

AirBlue · Post by **AirBlue** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:38 pm

Tariq Ch. is right now trying really hard to get an Airbus A330 in the market. The a.c is being delayed in the airline due to unavailability. As soon as they get one it will start flying with the airline. Besides, the A300-600, can anyone let us know the seating and if it is a worth flying a/c and not like the B4s?

Charliedelta11 · Post by **Charliedelta11** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:47 pm

the A300-600 has an interior just like the A310..its alright..not al that bad..or good either...if its going to manchester..then i'd say it really is worth flying..

R.F. · Post by **R.F.** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:03 pm

Flight deck commonality is there however it is based on certain research and study, basically it's termed as CCQ (Cross crew qualification). The CCQ is based on an assumption that one has considerable commercial aviation background along with heavy jet experience if being converted on to wide body jet. C130, B707 are ancient history in terms of commercial aviation, where as B737 entails a different philosophy as comapared to an Airbus and is a narrow body.
True that now the AB pilots have 2 years worth flying experience which is at best 1500 to 1800 total airline experience. Yolk or the stick is immaterial since you're trained for it, and most of the simulator training is ZFT (ZERO FLIGHT TIME) which essentially means that with the required sessions you can fly the aircraft straight without any line flight training.

The current industry standards for hiring an A300-600 or an A330 commanders experience entails atleast a minimum of 6000-7000 AIRLINE EXPERIENCE with at-least 2000 hours Pilot In Command time. Yes one can fly these machines since the system redundancies are numerous making them very safe and reliable, however with little AIRLINE EXPERIENCE the insurance premiums go up tremendously.
Currently a wide body commander has 10,000+ hours of AIRLINE EXPERIENCE and has flown a variety of equipment both as a First Officer and as a Captain. However AB will in my opinion at some point will have to employ commercially experienced pilots, since they intend to start Europe which would essentially entail LVP (Low Visibility Procedures) that currently none of thier pilots except one who has ever experienced it and neither have the expertise or the know how to train thier existing strength.