PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

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inducedrag
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by inducedrag »

Pakistan-1 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:59 pm
Hassan777 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:27 pm
It's high time for the government to outsource the major airports of Pakistan,as PCAA yet has proved again how incompetent they are and PK8303 should be the final push for the government to take these airports away from PCAA , the fact that the ATC controller stayed on duty till 7 PM and also 2 planes landed on the same runway where fragments could've been present is just baffling , when do we learn that SOPs are important? PCAA is beyond salvation and it's just better to take these airports away.
Sorry to burst your bubble but air traffic control will still be run by the CAA, as it is by the FAA in the US.
At OPST They hire their ATC they have to have the required CAA approval/ License


inducedrag
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by inducedrag »

Pakistan-1 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 4:59 pm
Hassan777 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 3:27 pm
It's high time for the government to outsource the major airports of Pakistan,as PCAA yet has proved again how incompetent they are and PK8303 should be the final push for the government to take these airports away from PCAA , the fact that the ATC controller stayed on duty till 7 PM and also 2 planes landed on the same runway where fragments could've been present is just baffling , when do we learn that SOPs are important? PCAA is beyond salvation and it's just better to take these airports away.
Sorry to burst your bubble but air traffic control will still be run by the CAA, as it is by the FAA in the US.
At OPST They hire their ATC they have to have the required CAA approval/ License

x_man
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by x_man »

@1000 Feet

Speed 250 Kts ( whereas it should be around 130 Kts)
Landing Gears UP ( should be down and locked)
Flaps 1 (it should be at least flaps 3 or flaps full)
No landing cx list is done ( its a must )
Above Glide Slope
GPWS and other Warnings screaming in the cockpit.

Yet he calls twice that we are comfortable to land. I mean how much more UNSTABLE you can get than this? How much more a pilot can screw the approach? Its the peak of it, you cant do worst than this .......and still he wanted to go ahead and land the plane full of innocent ppl.

Unfortunately, this culture of recklessness in PIA will never change. In the last 20 years, they had 6 hull losses that too for an airline that has barely a fleet of 30 ....can you get worst than this? Anyone trying to justify this kind of behavior seriously needs to get a reality check.

More Shaheeds will be created and our standard reply will be , Buss ji unn ki tou aaye howe thi, darajat buland hoon, Amen, Summ Amen.

Lets ,move on.....Nothing will change.

AviationLover2020
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by AviationLover2020 »

Does this report rule out the possibility that the pilots were attempting a go-around at 05 nautical miles and therefore retracted the landing gear & re-set the flaps? I suppose the theory that they were coming down too fast & too rapidly and accidentally smashed into the ground without the landing gear becomes void since the report makes no mention of the crew talking about a go-around until after the crash.

x_man
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by x_man »

@Aviationlover2020

What's your point? Pilots are trained to safely go around even at 50 feet or even after touch down...at 5 miles they would be around 1500 feet and that's an eternity to go around.

There are no theories as you stated, it's all factual now with huge amount of evidence to support it.

The simple fact is that they screwed up, violated all procedures, SOPs, and MURDERED 97 people along with themselves.

No second thought about it.

Hassan777
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Hassan777 »

x_man wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:22 pm
@Aviationlover2020

What's your point? Pilots are trained to safely go around even at 50 feet or even after touch down...at 5 miles they would be around 1500 feet and that's an eternity to go around.

There are no theories as you stated, it's all factual now with huge amount of evidence to support it.

The simple fact is that they screwed up, violated all procedures, SOPs, and MURDERED 97 people along with themselves.

No second thought about it.
True but they are dead now and they died with their choices with them,what’s more important now is to learn from this and not let anything similar happen again , The training procedures and SOPs of PIA should be scrutinized and reviewed.

Blackbird
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Blackbird »

“There are old pilots and there are bold pilots. But there are no old bold pilots.”
Very apt aviators saying.
Nothing is constant except change

oozeman64
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by oozeman64 »

AviationLover2020 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:42 pm
Does this report rule out the possibility that the pilots were attempting a go-around at 05 nautical miles and therefore retracted the landing gear & re-set the flaps? I suppose the theory that they were coming down too fast & too rapidly and accidentally smashed into the ground without the landing gear becomes void since the report makes no mention of the crew talking about a go-around until after the crash.
Yes, it seems that the report does in fact rule this out as it mentions nothing about setting TO/GA thrust or any thrust setting for go around at all.
Furthermore, the crew continued to extend flaps before touching down onto its engines, even after retracting the landing gear, which does not align with the actions of an attempted go-around.

Really, at this point there is no explanation for putting the gear up.
// The air is far safer than the ground //

fawad
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by fawad »

A good initial report with no blame-games so far. Also, intentions to scrutinize ATC and CAA responses are welcome. It would have been much more interesting if they included a transcript of the CVR.
- Why were they at those abnormal heights?
- What were they planning when they had to make an emergency descent?
- Why did they choose to ignore ATC warnings?
- Why was the landing gear retracted?
- It appears they did not bother with the landing checklist. Was it discussed and deliberately ignored?
- Why did they set the flaps to the wrong setting?
- Why did they choose to ignore all the warnings screaming at them? Did they discuss those warnings? misinterpret those simply because they were too fast?
- Did the crew realize what had happened on their first approach? Where they aware of having scrapped the engines?
- Did the crew discuss/interact/suggest actions or was only one pilot dictating all the stuff?

A lot of the "why it happened" stuff is left out due to the unavailability of CVR transcript.

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jam2k94
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by jam2k94 »

Retracting the gear at 5NM and the conversation in CVR of the same time will be more crucial.
Jamshed Ahmad

NL
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by NL »

Pure arrogance and overconfidence all the way. Nothing demonstrates the total lack of awareness better than the fact that reverse trust was selected after touching down with the gear retracted. Only after that they finally woke up, unfortunately only to make yet another wrong call in trying to go around with the engines -rather predictably- damaged beyond repair.

x_man
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by x_man »

@ Hassan 777

I agree with you. Unfortunately, nothing will change .As I said earlier they have broken/crashed 6 planes in the last 20 years and still try to justify their actions.

The best safety measures they can do is to kill another Kala Bakara and leave the rest for the invisible divine powers.

fawad
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by fawad »

x_man wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:21 pm
@1000 Feet

Speed 250 Kts ( whereas it should be around 130 Kts)
Landing Gears UP ( should be down and locked)
Flaps 1 (it should be at least flaps 3 or flaps full)
No landing cx list is done ( its a must )
Above Glide Slope
GPWS and other Warnings screaming in the cockpit.

Yet he calls twice that we are comfortable to land. I mean how much more UNSTABLE you can get than this? How much more a pilot can screw the approach? Its the peak of it, you cant do worst than this .......and still he wanted to go ahead and land the plane full of innocent ppl.

Unfortunately, this culture of recklessness in PIA will never change. In the last 20 years, they had 6 hull losses that too for an airline that has barely a fleet of 30 ....can you get worst than this? Anyone trying to justify this kind of behavior seriously needs to get a reality check.

More Shaheeds will be created and our standard reply will be , Buss ji unn ki tou aaye howe thi, darajat buland hoon, Amen, Summ Amen.

Lets ,move on.....Nothing will change.
PALPA mafia has already "rejected" this report as per TV clippings I saw. Apparently, they say the report should have focused instead of why their demands during coronavirus were not met. But you are right, what kind of a pilot thinks this approach is the right thing to do? "Oh, I am such a great pilot, I don't need procedures or checklist or even physics and I am comfortable with it. Let's talk more on the coronavirus", even after realizing how much of a daunting task it will be to land from here and how much risk they are putting the passengers in. And people are labeling them as "shaheeds" instead of murderers.

Unfortunately, the culture of recklessness is not limited to PIA. Their recklessness just happens to result in big disasters but similar attitude and culture is found everywhere. Non-professional behavior resulting from arrogance + carelessness + incompetence is rampant in PIA and other such organizations. And it is never solved due to politics + sweeping things under the carpet + fear management. And its a result of a careless attitude of the entire nation.

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Abbas Ali
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

PK8303 Air Crash Preliminary Investigation Report

Islamabad, June 24, 2020:
PIA Spokesperson in response to the preliminary investigation report shared in the parliament by the Honourable Minister for Aviation, Mr. Ghulam Sarwar Khan today on the events of PK8303 of May 22, 2020 resulting in the loss of 97 lives, acknowledged the findings of the report and reaffirmed PIA’s resolve for further improving safety standards within the company using the findings of the report as guiding beacons. He said that the management has already set into motion an additional series of corrective measures for process improvement.

The PIA Spokesperson said that based on our internal assessment of the situation consequent to this tragic event, PIA will be making additional recommendations to the regulatory authority for further process improvement which is the order of the day, saying that the regulator would be needed to firm up and bring about zero-tolerance towards misdemeanors in the grant and checking of licenses.

He said meanwhile, in order to ensure that safety is never compromised again, effectively immediately a Flight Data Monitoring Unit has been established through which now PIA will itself measure, analyze and identify trends of our flights network-wide for corrective or preventive measures based on international established commercial aviation standards. This unit will be headed by a senior Captain having no affiliation with any association and will undertake the tasks diligently and independently.

The spokesperson further reiterated that for PIA safety comes first, PIA is a socially responsible company geared for national service that had been a leader and pioneer in the aviation industry globally. Even after the aforementioned report and on the certificates issued to PIA by International Safety Agencies and monitors, it is established that PIA’s maintenance and operational safety standards are at par with any international player. PIA’s operational clearances to operate to a number of international destinations are only issued when the adherence to these flight safety standards are met.

Source: PIA Press Release
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x_man
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by x_man »

fawad wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:40 pm

PALPA mafia has already "rejected" this report as per TV clippings I saw.
PALPA is an absolute disgrace. They are one of the contributing reasons that crashes will never stop in Pakistan. This is not the last one, in few years we will have another one, and another after that soon.

Will you ever send your family to fly with a Captain who is known for reckless flying and has failed many or barely passed his/her proficiency checks? Definitely NO. If today I order an Uber and later I come to know that driver's license is fake and has multiple driving fines, will I even sit with him??? Let alone fly with him?

8303 has taken an UNSTABLE approach to a different level. The speeds they were flying and entered runway threshold, even with Gears Down, they probably would have stopped in Karsaaz or Lal Qila on Shrahra e Faisal.

Whole world is laughing at us. Every WhatsApp group is abuzzed with mocking Pakistan and its aviation culture. You cannot find the worst human factor accident on Airbus A320 than this.

Anyone still trying to defend the pilot's action is either absolutely deluded or out of their minds.