PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

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A310
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by A310 »

Inam855 wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:11 am
A310 wrote: Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:13 pm When that Gilgit incident occurred, initially I defended the Capt. because people like SM just an hour into the incident started saying she approached an airfield like Gilgit on an ATR at a speed in excess of 300 kts. I mean I do know what hot and high but then I’m just amazed at these speculations.
@A310: Your 300 knot point kind of becomes moot when you consider the actual speed she was at. Would you like to share it with the forum? Re the pilot hiring - again would you like to tell me who was the MD at that time who sanctioned the hirings? Was it....dare I say...a pilot?

I'm not sure what the actual speed was with which she approached. She was at fault and definitely hot and high. But how is my point even debatable? When the cruise speed for an aircraft is typically 220-230 kts, you say that a northern difficult airfield was approached at 300 kts. Watch a video of Gilgit landing on youtube and let me know if thats possible given the nature of the final left turn. So please just stop with that. The MD was Aijaz Haroon against whom the pilots protested and striked because of the TK PK deal. For one pilot holding an esteemed post and whose morality is questionable, you are ready to defame all pilots. :applause: :applause:
Airborne wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:03 am Very rightly said Tailwind. I feel sorry for Abbas who tries his best to keep this forum straight and focused, yet we have so called aviation enthusiasts here who think they know far more than pilots at helm. Then there are pilots who couldn’t make in to PIA and they leave no stone unturned criticizing PIA for their personal vendetta. I kind of agree what A310 has been saying. Some members think they have the God damn upmost eligibility to criticize PIA pilots. God help us!!!
Airborne, I didn't realize anyone here needed your permission to express their views or to call out blatant whataboutery. I dont understand why you feel pilots are beyond question, or why the holier than thou, mentality prevails and you defend it. Indeed Abbas sahib must not have known what running an internet forum entails, we should all pack up and leave and you can then enjoy the website on its own. As a public servant living and thriving on taxpayer money, from the pockets of the farmer whose child dies because of no vaccines to the richest person in the land, you are answerable for every single one of your actions on duty. If a bureaucrat can be imprisoned for a 10 lac rupee contract, then the one who singlehandedly caused a diversion and dumped fuel worth millions should at least answer for his actions instead of being promoted to instructor. If you do not like the public peering in to your performance, then you should not be in a public enterprise. I'm sure many airlines would love to hire "world bestest pilots" like you. We all know the track record of your CURRENT captains and instructors who come here to the middle east and are told "thank you, no need to reapply" after a 30 min session in the sim. Magnificent achievements indeed, I am sure you and the entire PIA pilots have a lot to be proud of, so indulge me, please:

i. How many safety seminars/events/publications has the pilot community done in the past ten years?

ii. Out of all of the pilots recruited in PIA in the last ten years, how many have no blood relatives working in PIA?

iii. How transparent would you say PIA's recruitment process (from sweeper to pilot) is? Has your community done anything to fix that?

iv. Is it true that PALPA has an agreement with management whereby if two persons, one the child of an ordinary person having higher marks in the recruitment process, and one the child of a palpa member having lower marks - the palpa member's child will be chosen?

v. Is it true that multiple failures are not practised in SIM? Why is that? Is it inconceivable for two or more systems to fail on PIA's airplanes?

vi. What internal directives were issued after the Gilgit & Panjgur incident re SOPs?

vii. Would it be appropriate for highly professional pilots to say "Everyone say he was fasting, Palpa is politically powerful, we will not let the truth come out in this case"?

viii. Do you believe it is "good moral character" for one of your colleagues to be attempting written ATP examinations in Karachi while physically being in Toronto?

ix. Is there any internal SOP at PIA for stable approaches? If someone violates that, what action is taken?

x. Has there been any presser or effort by the holy pilot's community to outline members violating SOPs or professional standards, from garbage cleaners hiding drugs in the aircraft to engineers violating SOPs to unprofessional ATCs to cabin crew hauling undeclared goods.

xi. Why do you & your colleagues feel you are untouchable, above the law? Why do you get defensive when people ask you about systematic issues or performance and training related questions? Why are you unable to support any of what you say with evidence, or prove me wrong, and instead insist everyone bow their heads down to you in respect? What drives these delusions of grandeur?

xii. How many hull losses has Pakistan seen since its formation? How many of those were attributed to pilot error? Let's go with your argument for a second and say all those reports were wrong - in the past 10 years, have you, or anyone in your community taken initiatives to ensure transparency, an independent safety investigation board, judicial oversight or ANY other mechanism? Just one?

I leave you with a question on two of the finest examples of airmanship in the world: first the Feb 2020 incident of radio silence; second the return of a fully laden & fueled 777 over an MEL item which both the highly qualified, skilled, blessed, pious & perfect geniuses sitting at the pointy end chose not to look up. No doubt you must very proud of your colleagues actions, but please do enlighten all of the readers to details about both?

While I understand & acknowledge no one else here besides you and your pure & perfect friends is entitled to their opinions - how dare we question pilots of PIA, the pinnacles of professionalism - I hope you and your colleagues wouldnt mind answering any ONE of my questions for the readers benefit.

"They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim." - Gustave Le Bon


@Tailwind @A310 & @Airborne thank you for your insightful contributions, wish you a long & successful career.

@SM, I fully agree - time to move on until the next one.

Adieu blue skies & tailwinds everyone!
Inam Sahib you can continue with your references of farmers and deaths and all. I don't understand the point you're trying to prove. Who is saying that pilots are not questionable? They are but then so are all other departments. Why are you pissed at that sort of grand accountability? The way you sound, you just want the pilots to be held accountable. For the diversion you keep on mentioning, please give the flight particulars at least. The last I checked and was taught, pilots have the autonomy regarding diversions. A few misused it though for personal incentives. The last I remember that happening was when PK 709 diverted to Stansted in 2013. End result: the Captain was fired. Doesn't it massage your ego enough? Do you want me to list the name of ex PIA pilots who got into ME3 and are currently commanding fleet thats includes A380 and B787. Some get in and some don't. What is your problem again?

Just google PALPA and safety seminars. I'm sure you'll find links to that. You'll find HOP threads as well. Those are enough for you. I don't have to get the official figures for you. "Whataboutery". Irony i'd say.

Of the 26 pilots recruited in the last batch in 2017, only 3 had blood relatives in PIA. In fact 1 of them is still not operational. Get a calculator do the 2/26 calculation.

Hahahaha so the sweepers recruitment is also a domain of pilot community. Why didn't you stay specific to pilots only? Because you couldn't find enough dirt?

Please share that hideous PALPA agreement in which that understanding is established. I'm sure the world will end before it even exists. Not your fault that you were given the wrong info. So yeah thats not true.

The last time I was in a simulator, all non normal procedures were carried out. Also remember an instructor failing a serving 777 Captain's son who was an FO on ATR. The Instructor was a student of the 777 Captain and had high regard for him and even then failed him. Is that enough professionalism for you? I'm sure you would never mention such a thing even if you knew.

No more than one directive was needed after those incidents. And that was about unstable approaches and pilots were sent circulars by Chief Pilot Safety and Chief Pilot Standards. Though I agree it should've been regulated more.

"Everyone say he was fasting, Palpa is politically powerful, we will not let the truth come out in this case". Who said this? Or did Lucman tell you this?

The pilots who cheated on ATPL examinations are all suspended till now. The cases are going on in courts. Not my fault that every process is intervened by state institutions.

"from garbage cleaners hiding drugs in the aircraft to engineers violating SOPs to unprofessional ATCs to cabin crew hauling undeclared goods." Shabash. The JD of pilots states that they should be in cockpit and fly the plane. How are other departments their domain? Stick to the pilots na. Ya are you scared of losing the plot which you definitely are. The Pilots violating SOPS are dealt with. A permanent 777 captain was suspended even though he had 2 years of service left. This was because he delayed a flight for wrong reasons. All level bust incidents result in 4-6 months of non-international standards.

I don't know why you are disillusioned enough to say the pilots are not questionable. You might have asked a stupid question to a pilot and he did not answer your question and now you've formed an opinion.

Oh bhai PALPA ro ro mar gayi hai ke let the investigations be transparent. You seem to ghost me when I question why no A320 pilot is part of the investigation team. No one is even pushing for PIA A320 Captain. Any experienced pilot from any airline. So much so some HOP member wrote that any PALPA member near the investigation should be shot dead. Frustration frustration frustration.

The radio silence pilots were grounded and given ground training and later had to give a route check. Which 777 incident? Can't seem to recall this one. Your help will be appreciated.

You seem to highlight the right issues but blame it all on the pilots. You fail to see anyone else. Just ask yourself if every department's flaws are a fault of pilots. Read your posts again. Sweeper ki induction bhi pilot ki ghalti. And it is your delusion that you think we consider ourselves holy. No one is above the law. You all are entitled to your opinions. But expect a response too. This is not a rant forum. If you publicly accuse someone for the wrong reasons, you will be corrected. Thank you for that quote. I skipped it though because you keep losing your credibility. A few members stated some members including me adopted a harsh tone in this threads correspondences. I decided to go away for a bit. But you played us by saying you're leaving and on that note wrote an entire questionnaire. That warranted a response. And i will respond again till the time you remain misinformed. The difference between you and me is that I admitted all the instances when pilots were at fault and I just appeal/hope/call for an across the board accountability. But you are not ready for that. I really hope you don't have a blood relative in another department that is at fault. Farewell my friend, till you write something problematic again.


arshad.altaf
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by arshad.altaf »

More salt to the wounds of grieving families of victims of the crashed flight:

Ghazal Baig, who lost her brother Abdul Waheed Baig in the tragedy, turned emotional while narrating the ordeal of her family during the process of identification of their loved one. “My mother, who was already in a state of shock and trauma, was being treated as a beggar and humiliated time and again only to identify her son and bury his remains,” she said. One day, she said, her family was informed in the middle of the night about the identification of her brother’s body and next day it was handed over to someone else. She also regretted the way KU handled the sensitive task.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1563301/famil ... ded-ku-lab

speed8
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by speed8 »

Good Morning all,
Thank you for this forum, this tragedy will impact many aviation people, me included....., i am from France, 68 old & will try related my view concern this A320 crash, but not forget this is only my view and responsability....
1990, i expect private pilot, i have booth plane & hélicopter formation....later, i do glider formation, & glider/towing, para's drop also. Flying hours are free in this view, and fly expériences will increase quick of course. 3 years later, when achieve a tow day, the last one this day, whas with a old bi-place glider, & tow it to 800'.....but, a mecanic trouble in the fuel pomp, & i lost the engine at 600', the plane Morane Rallye 180cv, needs tow speed max 100kmh, with 10° flaps....glider will immédiatly turn to return to the field, will arrive 30m to short, but no conséquences for the two pilots on board, in my case, it was différent, no power, no speed and critical situation like a blade in the sky.....the result is, for sure, i grounded, and whas since then, the first Morane pilot with extended landing gear...! Needs few weeks at hospital of course, but, in life.....Regarding now, whats happend in my réact at the moment ? not only my décision for sure, but formation how fly a glider, follow by plane formation, and more than 1200 tow's, will help réact properly and adéquate, to do this, whats happenened in the cockpit ? from 600' to the ground, a few seconds, 7/8 if i remember, but, réact wha at first nose down, speed is helping to have aircraft minimum control before impact and try flare a minimum.....end of this story.., today, retired at home with a full FDS A320 home cockpit, i Don't need reply conditions concern the A320 PIA tragedy, but, i can't understand the reasons...i read all i find about this crash, every day, have discuss with friends pilots, pro 777/A330 / B737,& résults are with same conclusions toghetter, : crew perform the same flight at 17,18,19,20,21 & tragic 22...for sure, the final conclusion, are in the hands of investigators, with FDR/CVR, but, the PF had probably the destination airport in view in FD, PM respond to ATC,they are confortably establish on ILS 25L...., is this not, consequent make Everyday the same flights ? in this view, for sure, rules violation are ....i mean the landing checklist..., ???.., i understand, if landing is not confirm three greens, probably high speed & the valve not respond, consequently after runway contact with both engines, try to Go-Arond, with "residual speed", nose up attitude and reach 2000', in the same time with the gear lever in the down position, ....low speed (too), valve réact & open the doors landing gears appears in land position, will decrease again the residual speed, when turn from downind in base, decrease again ans STALL....

Amaad Lone
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Amaad Lone »

Hello everybody

I have a suggestion. When you are replying to someone quote, or giving an opinion on someone's comment do you have to copy paste the entire length of the other persons comment.

It just takes up space and accomplishes nothing.

You have a one line reply and a lot of times you copy paste three our four replies.

I do not think anyone keeps reading the same replies again and again.

so please say your two lines and keep it simple so we can actually ready your comments rather than going through pages and pages of same replies being used as quotes again and again and again.
Last edited by Amaad Lone on Mon Jun 15, 2020 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Abbas Ali
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

AT about 2:35 PM on May 22, PK8303 passenger Khalid Sherdil, who was sitting in the first row of the PIA A320, messaged someone very close to him in Karachi: “Something is wrong … we bumped on the runway, and it seems like the brakes didn’t work”.

This, we now know, was when the plane engines scraped the runway before the pilots decided to execute a ‘go around’.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1563389
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Zulfiqar »

I wholeheartedly endorse the views of Amaad Lone on limiting quotes from others.

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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

Passport of a passenger who died in the crash was found in the crash area on June 16 and handed over to PIA, according to news sources.

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fawad
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by fawad »

So, CVR and FDR recordings are with the investigation board. No new information has surfaced? Our media is so good in "leaks" but it seems the leaks are well plugged-in in this case.

Let's wait for June 22 then.

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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Frostbite »

It has gone eerily quiet on here. I guess everyone is waiting for June 22 for more information to surface. They have kept a tight lid on things over the past 10 days or so.

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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Amaad Lone »

It has gone eerily quiet on here.
What do you want??? People should keep harping about the fast and steep approach again and again, and posting the same videos again and again. Thank god its quiet here, this top was getting repetitive.

The only people who will remember this crash are the ones who lost their loved ones, no one else really cares.

I guess everyone is waiting for June 22 for more information to surface. They have kept a tight lid on things over the past 10 days or so.
Nothing new will come out, it will be declared a pilot error because that is what it was.

And certain people will scream and howl that the pilot had 17000 hours and he was a saint blah blah blah. yes but that day he made a fatal mistake and killed 97 people. Part of the blame obviously goes to the ATC that gave this aircraft clearance to land.
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by baberblues »

It shows how shambolic the PCAA have been, its been run by non experienced folk, absolute scammers. Shame on the CAA!

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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

Karachi, June 21, 2020: PIA is providing all possible support and assistance to the persons who were injured on the ground and whose houses and vehicles were damaged due to the unfortunate air crash.

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PIA has arranged provision of six month’s rent to the affectees including house owners and tenants in order to provide interim and immediate relief. The cheques were distributed to the affectees at PTC Auditorium, PIA Head Office, Karachi. Before the distribution of the cheques, special prayer (Dua) was held for the deceased and for the speedy recovery of those who were injured on the ground.

The initial damage costs pertaining to houses and vehicles were ascertained by PIA and Government officials immediately after the incident. Besides this, a technical surveyor had also been appointed by the Insurance Company who has evaluated the damages and the final claim amount will be settled accordingly.

PIA and Government had provided temporary accommodation to the ground affectees immediately after the crash. Those injured on ground were provided full medical support and hospitalization.

The Cheques were distributed to the affectees by MNAs Akram Cheema and Aftab Hussain Siddique, MPA & leader of the opposition in the Provincial Assembly of Sindh, Syed Firdous Shahmim Naqvi and government officials. Chief Operating Officer PIA, Aijaz Mazhar, PIA senior officials Khalilullah Sheikh, Amanullah Qureshi, AVM Soban Nazir, Younus Khan, Muhammad Shuaib and the effected residents were present at the occasion.

Source: PIA Press Release
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

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May 22, 2020, PIA Airbus A320 (AP-BLD) Lahore to Karachi flight PK8303 preliminary crash investigation report to be presented by Aviation Minister Ghulam Sarwar Khan on June 22.

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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

Meeting Chaired by Aviation Minister Ghulam Sarwar Khan at Aviation Division today.

Aviation Division has received flight PK8303 preliminary crash investigation report prepared by Aircraft Accident Investigation Board (AAIB).

President AAIB Air Commodore Muhammad Usman Ghani gave briefing on the investigation report at the meeting.

The preliminary report will be presented to Prime Minister Imran Khan.

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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

According to Geo News:

The preliminary crash investigation report prepared by Aircraft Accident Investigation Board (AAIB) blames PK8303 cockpit crew and air traffic control for the crash.

Cockpit crew did not follow air traffic control instructions.

Air traffic control failed to force cockpit crew to follow instructions.

PIA and CAA methods/procedures also blamed for their failure to control accidents/incidents.

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