Inam Sahib you can continue with your references of farmers and deaths and all. I don't understand the point you're trying to prove. Who is saying that pilots are not questionable? They are but then so are all other departments. Why are you pissed at that sort of grand accountability? The way you sound, you just want the pilots to be held accountable. For the diversion you keep on mentioning, please give the flight particulars at least. The last I checked and was taught, pilots have the autonomy regarding diversions. A few misused it though for personal incentives. The last I remember that happening was when PK 709 diverted to Stansted in 2013. End result: the Captain was fired. Doesn't it massage your ego enough? Do you want me to list the name of ex PIA pilots who got into ME3 and are currently commanding fleet thats includes A380 and B787. Some get in and some don't. What is your problem again?Inam855 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:11 am@A310: Your 300 knot point kind of becomes moot when you consider the actual speed she was at. Would you like to share it with the forum? Re the pilot hiring - again would you like to tell me who was the MD at that time who sanctioned the hirings? Was it....dare I say...a pilot?A310 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:13 pm When that Gilgit incident occurred, initially I defended the Capt. because people like SM just an hour into the incident started saying she approached an airfield like Gilgit on an ATR at a speed in excess of 300 kts. I mean I do know what hot and high but then I’m just amazed at these speculations.
I'm not sure what the actual speed was with which she approached. She was at fault and definitely hot and high. But how is my point even debatable? When the cruise speed for an aircraft is typically 220-230 kts, you say that a northern difficult airfield was approached at 300 kts. Watch a video of Gilgit landing on youtube and let me know if thats possible given the nature of the final left turn. So please just stop with that. The MD was Aijaz Haroon against whom the pilots protested and striked because of the TK PK deal. For one pilot holding an esteemed post and whose morality is questionable, you are ready to defame all pilots.
Airborne, I didn't realize anyone here needed your permission to express their views or to call out blatant whataboutery. I dont understand why you feel pilots are beyond question, or why the holier than thou, mentality prevails and you defend it. Indeed Abbas sahib must not have known what running an internet forum entails, we should all pack up and leave and you can then enjoy the website on its own. As a public servant living and thriving on taxpayer money, from the pockets of the farmer whose child dies because of no vaccines to the richest person in the land, you are answerable for every single one of your actions on duty. If a bureaucrat can be imprisoned for a 10 lac rupee contract, then the one who singlehandedly caused a diversion and dumped fuel worth millions should at least answer for his actions instead of being promoted to instructor. If you do not like the public peering in to your performance, then you should not be in a public enterprise. I'm sure many airlines would love to hire "world bestest pilots" like you. We all know the track record of your CURRENT captains and instructors who come here to the middle east and are told "thank you, no need to reapply" after a 30 min session in the sim. Magnificent achievements indeed, I am sure you and the entire PIA pilots have a lot to be proud of, so indulge me, please:Airborne wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:03 am Very rightly said Tailwind. I feel sorry for Abbas who tries his best to keep this forum straight and focused, yet we have so called aviation enthusiasts here who think they know far more than pilots at helm. Then there are pilots who couldn’t make in to PIA and they leave no stone unturned criticizing PIA for their personal vendetta. I kind of agree what A310 has been saying. Some members think they have the God damn upmost eligibility to criticize PIA pilots. God help us!!!
i. How many safety seminars/events/publications has the pilot community done in the past ten years?
ii. Out of all of the pilots recruited in PIA in the last ten years, how many have no blood relatives working in PIA?
iii. How transparent would you say PIA's recruitment process (from sweeper to pilot) is? Has your community done anything to fix that?
iv. Is it true that PALPA has an agreement with management whereby if two persons, one the child of an ordinary person having higher marks in the recruitment process, and one the child of a palpa member having lower marks - the palpa member's child will be chosen?
v. Is it true that multiple failures are not practised in SIM? Why is that? Is it inconceivable for two or more systems to fail on PIA's airplanes?
vi. What internal directives were issued after the Gilgit & Panjgur incident re SOPs?
vii. Would it be appropriate for highly professional pilots to say "Everyone say he was fasting, Palpa is politically powerful, we will not let the truth come out in this case"?
viii. Do you believe it is "good moral character" for one of your colleagues to be attempting written ATP examinations in Karachi while physically being in Toronto?
ix. Is there any internal SOP at PIA for stable approaches? If someone violates that, what action is taken?
x. Has there been any presser or effort by the holy pilot's community to outline members violating SOPs or professional standards, from garbage cleaners hiding drugs in the aircraft to engineers violating SOPs to unprofessional ATCs to cabin crew hauling undeclared goods.
xi. Why do you & your colleagues feel you are untouchable, above the law? Why do you get defensive when people ask you about systematic issues or performance and training related questions? Why are you unable to support any of what you say with evidence, or prove me wrong, and instead insist everyone bow their heads down to you in respect? What drives these delusions of grandeur?
xii. How many hull losses has Pakistan seen since its formation? How many of those were attributed to pilot error? Let's go with your argument for a second and say all those reports were wrong - in the past 10 years, have you, or anyone in your community taken initiatives to ensure transparency, an independent safety investigation board, judicial oversight or ANY other mechanism? Just one?
I leave you with a question on two of the finest examples of airmanship in the world: first the Feb 2020 incident of radio silence; second the return of a fully laden & fueled 777 over an MEL item which both the highly qualified, skilled, blessed, pious & perfect geniuses sitting at the pointy end chose not to look up. No doubt you must very proud of your colleagues actions, but please do enlighten all of the readers to details about both?
While I understand & acknowledge no one else here besides you and your pure & perfect friends is entitled to their opinions - how dare we question pilots of PIA, the pinnacles of professionalism - I hope you and your colleagues wouldnt mind answering any ONE of my questions for the readers benefit.
"They turn aside from evidence that is not to their taste, preferring to deify error, if error seduce them. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim." - Gustave Le Bon
@Tailwind @A310 & @Airborne thank you for your insightful contributions, wish you a long & successful career.
@SM, I fully agree - time to move on until the next one.
Adieu blue skies & tailwinds everyone!
Just google PALPA and safety seminars. I'm sure you'll find links to that. You'll find HOP threads as well. Those are enough for you. I don't have to get the official figures for you. "Whataboutery". Irony i'd say.
Of the 26 pilots recruited in the last batch in 2017, only 3 had blood relatives in PIA. In fact 1 of them is still not operational. Get a calculator do the 2/26 calculation.
Hahahaha so the sweepers recruitment is also a domain of pilot community. Why didn't you stay specific to pilots only? Because you couldn't find enough dirt?
Please share that hideous PALPA agreement in which that understanding is established. I'm sure the world will end before it even exists. Not your fault that you were given the wrong info. So yeah thats not true.
The last time I was in a simulator, all non normal procedures were carried out. Also remember an instructor failing a serving 777 Captain's son who was an FO on ATR. The Instructor was a student of the 777 Captain and had high regard for him and even then failed him. Is that enough professionalism for you? I'm sure you would never mention such a thing even if you knew.
No more than one directive was needed after those incidents. And that was about unstable approaches and pilots were sent circulars by Chief Pilot Safety and Chief Pilot Standards. Though I agree it should've been regulated more.
"Everyone say he was fasting, Palpa is politically powerful, we will not let the truth come out in this case". Who said this? Or did Lucman tell you this?
The pilots who cheated on ATPL examinations are all suspended till now. The cases are going on in courts. Not my fault that every process is intervened by state institutions.
"from garbage cleaners hiding drugs in the aircraft to engineers violating SOPs to unprofessional ATCs to cabin crew hauling undeclared goods." Shabash. The JD of pilots states that they should be in cockpit and fly the plane. How are other departments their domain? Stick to the pilots na. Ya are you scared of losing the plot which you definitely are. The Pilots violating SOPS are dealt with. A permanent 777 captain was suspended even though he had 2 years of service left. This was because he delayed a flight for wrong reasons. All level bust incidents result in 4-6 months of non-international standards.
I don't know why you are disillusioned enough to say the pilots are not questionable. You might have asked a stupid question to a pilot and he did not answer your question and now you've formed an opinion.
Oh bhai PALPA ro ro mar gayi hai ke let the investigations be transparent. You seem to ghost me when I question why no A320 pilot is part of the investigation team. No one is even pushing for PIA A320 Captain. Any experienced pilot from any airline. So much so some HOP member wrote that any PALPA member near the investigation should be shot dead. Frustration frustration frustration.
The radio silence pilots were grounded and given ground training and later had to give a route check. Which 777 incident? Can't seem to recall this one. Your help will be appreciated.
You seem to highlight the right issues but blame it all on the pilots. You fail to see anyone else. Just ask yourself if every department's flaws are a fault of pilots. Read your posts again. Sweeper ki induction bhi pilot ki ghalti. And it is your delusion that you think we consider ourselves holy. No one is above the law. You all are entitled to your opinions. But expect a response too. This is not a rant forum. If you publicly accuse someone for the wrong reasons, you will be corrected. Thank you for that quote. I skipped it though because you keep losing your credibility. A few members stated some members including me adopted a harsh tone in this threads correspondences. I decided to go away for a bit. But you played us by saying you're leaving and on that note wrote an entire questionnaire. That warranted a response. And i will respond again till the time you remain misinformed. The difference between you and me is that I admitted all the instances when pilots were at fault and I just appeal/hope/call for an across the board accountability. But you are not ready for that. I really hope you don't have a blood relative in another department that is at fault. Farewell my friend, till you write something problematic again.