PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

[Abbas Ali]

The French investigation team will depart from Karachi on June 1. The team will carry FDR/CVR of the crashed PIA Airbus A320 (AP-BLD) for downloading data and other data/evidence/information collected by the team during its investigation work in Karachi.

The team will travel to France aboard Airbus A330-800 registration F-WTTO.

On June 1, the A330 will arrive in Karachi from Toulouse Blagnac Airport. Later, the aircraft will depart from Karachi for fligh to Paris Airport-Le Bourget.

Abbas

[x_man]

I doubt if it had anything to do with landing gear, or may be there was some minor issue with the l/g which kept them over occupied to mess up the initial descent and approach.

I had a word with one of the friends in ATC, he said on first approach Land Gears were never lowered. They made a gear up contact with the runways thrice and then went around.

There was no issue with the gears but it appears that approach speed was so high ( more than 260 Kts) that the gears did not come down even if they had put the landing gear lever down.

[fawad]

First and foremost the pilots are employees of the Airline, so blaming the pilots and not the Airline absolutely doesn't make sense....Why do we continue to see these tragic accidents if steps are taken ?

Maybe you did not read my post carefully. I said, "Even if it was pilot incompetence, then it is the responsibility of management that they shouldn't hire incompetent people but then again...almost all of PIA appointees are political."

Why do we keep having such accidents?

1. Because PIA is full of unqualified, incompetent, and political appointees whom you (including management) cannot touch because they are above the law. Their political parties or that PALPA mafia is there to protect them, not to even talk about how difficult it is to fire someone in govt. job. Procedures, processes, etc. and court stay orders, etc.

2. Another issue with our people as a whole, not just pilots, is thinking about ourselves as superior and above procedures and laws. Some of the pilots that have crashed were very experienced so qualification is not an issue there. However, there is a reason why they developed check-lists, guidelines, procedures, etc. because even the most senior and experienced person cannot rely on their memory or senses. Our culture, however, makes experienced people think they are all in all, the boss, more capable of any list or procedure, and smart enough for a jugaar.

3. Finally, there is an issue of non-professional behavior. XYZ is my friend, my sindhi/punjabi mate, my tableeghi partner, or has sifarish of someone. Let me ignore their small mistakes until they get used to it and make bigger ones. Both AirBlue and Bhoja pilots were very experienced. They could qualify for instructors and know the best inside knowledge. However, their attitude and non-professional behavior led to so many lives lost including their own.

Today I saw interviews of former MD ijaz haroon, PALPA president cp irfan and a former PIA captain. All insisted that a civilian should be included in the investigation, preferably an A320 pilot as the airforce investigators were biased by the CEO. When the host asked them who they would recommend, they began humming and hawing and finally took the name of A320 chief pilot out of the hat. Wonders, all of these geniuses, I tell you. First blame the investigators for being biased, then ask a fellow pilot and no doubt palpa member to be part of the investigation.

Absolutely!

I will go as far as to say that any PALPA member of anyone associated with it should be shot at sight (figurately speaking) if they come within 1000m of any investigation or anything related to this crash. PALPA is part of the problem, not the solution. It would be funny since they want a civilian included in the team, let AAIB get someone from BEA or NTSB on a short contract. A professional "civilian" investigator and also show them the reports of AirBlue, Bhoja, and those two stupid sisters. Then ask him for recommendations regarding PIA pilots...see what you get.

[fawad]

Don't CVR and FDR have locator beacons attached? What took so long to find them?

[ab7]

Don't CVR and FDR have locator beacons attached? What took so long to find them?

Those are underwater beacons and only gets activated once immersed in water.

[Hassan777]

First and foremost the pilots are employees of the Airline, so blaming the pilots and not the Airline absolutely doesn't make sense....Why do we continue to see these tragic accidents if steps are taken ?

Maybe you did not read my post carefully. I said, "Even if it was pilot incompetence, then it is the responsibility of management that they shouldn't hire incompetent people but then again...almost all of PIA appointees are political."

Why do we keep having such accidents?

1. Because PIA is full of unqualified, incompetent, and political appointees whom you (including management) cannot touch because they are above the law. Their political parties or that PALPA mafia is there to protect them, not to even talk about how difficult it is to fire someone in govt. job. Procedures, processes, etc. and court stay orders, etc.

2. Another issue with our people as a whole, not just pilots, is thinking about ourselves as superior and above procedures and laws. Some of the pilots that have crashed were very experienced so qualification is not an issue there. However, there is a reason why they developed check-lists, guidelines, procedures, etc. because even the most senior and experienced person cannot rely on their memory or senses. Our culture, however, makes experienced people think they are all in all, the boss, more capable of any list or procedure, and smart enough for a jugaar.

3. Finally, there is an issue of non-professional behavior. XYZ is my friend, my sindhi/punjabi mate, my tableeghi partner, or has sifarish of someone. Let me ignore their small mistakes until they get used to it and make bigger ones. Both AirBlue and Bhoja pilots were very experienced. They could qualify for instructors and know the best inside knowledge. However, their attitude and non-professional behavior led to so many lives lost including their own.

Today I saw interviews of former MD ijaz haroon, PALPA president cp irfan and a former PIA captain. All insisted that a civilian should be included in the investigation, preferably an A320 pilot as the airforce investigators were biased by the CEO. When the host asked them who they would recommend, they began humming and hawing and finally took the name of A320 chief pilot out of the hat. Wonders, all of these geniuses, I tell you. First blame the investigators for being biased, then ask a fellow pilot and no doubt palpa member to be part of the investigation.

Absolutely!

I will go as far as to say that any PALPA member of anyone associated with it should be shot at sight (figurately speaking) if they come within 1000m of any investigation or anything related to this crash. PALPA is part of the problem, not the solution. It would be funny since they want a civilian included in the team, let AAIB get someone from BEA or NTSB on a short contract. A professional "civilian" investigator and also show them the reports of AirBlue, Bhoja, and those two stupid sisters. Then ask him for recommendations regarding PIA pilots...see what you get.

Well said sir, Finally someone explained it in a civil manner. Also whatever the investigation yields PALPA will most likely reject it like previous one’s and be stubborn like before on not implementing the recommendations.

[oozeman64]

First and foremost the pilots are employees of the Airline, so blaming the pilots and not the Airline absolutely doesn't make sense....Why do we continue to see these tragic accidents if steps are taken ?

Sir, i agree with all that you said, but what you quoted, i have never actually said, seems to be what i quoted from someone else's post in my post

[Abbas Ali]

KARACHI: The ill-fated A320 aircraft that crashed into a thickly-populated neighbourhood near Karachi airport on May 22 was insured for $19.7 million and every passenger was insured for Rs5m each.

“The hull insurance of [the aircraft] AP-BLD is US$19.7 million and the amount will go to the owner [of the plane] from whom the PIA acquired it on lease,” spokesperson for Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) Abdullah H. Khan told DAWN.

The family of each victim is being provided Rs1m for making arrangements for burial. In addition, the legal heirs of those who died in the crash would get Rs5m each.

Source: https://www.dawn.com/news/1560333

[Abbas Ali]

[Abbas Ali]

Capt. Sajjad Gul remembered by his daughter.

Article in DAWN newspaper: https://www.dawn.com/news/1560300

Abbas

[A310]

I will go as far as to say that any PALPA member of anyone associated with it should be shot at sight (figurately speaking) if they come within 1000m of any investigation or anything related to this crash. PALPA is part of the problem, not the solution. It would be funny since they want a civilian included in the team, let AAIB get someone from BEA or NTSB on a short contract. A professional "civilian" investigator and also show them the reports of AirBlue, Bhoja, and those two stupid sisters. Then ask him for recommendations regarding PIA pilots...see what you get.

Barring the other unions, please explain how is an association like PALPA a problem? And specifically in the context of this investigation? It’s not like one nomination from pilots is going to change the direction of the investigation. They’re pilots not some divine power. Its funny how the AAIB is full of Commodores, how in the hell are they relevant to the investigation of a commercial crash? This just happened because they need to save their selfish arses. If pilots are so much to be blamed then why wasn’t the report of PK 661 made public? I am damn sure that had it been a pilot error then it would’ve been made public immediately. A couple of months ago a biased narrative was built in the mainstream media where exaggerated claims like pilots refusing to fly were aired. In reality it was because they were not being provided PPE for flights. And just a few days after that PALPA was banned. Have the damned courtesy to provide essentials before asking others to serve their country. As long as the armed forces run the airline nothing is going to be fair. On top of that why aren’t pilots allowed to go on media? Why was the pilot given a showcause notice for putting up the picture of sub-standard mask and hazmat suit on social media? When you expose the military tou phir ego ka masla aa jata hai. Effing hypocrites.

[Abbas Ali]

Ninety percent of aircraft wreckage removed from crash site and shifted to Karachi Airport.

An engine and wing section remains to be removed from roof of house(s).

Abbas

[Inam855]

@fawad, couldnt agree more. You've neatly hit the nail on the head and summed up the situation.

@A310, I think you missed the entire point by a good 4500 feet. The entire reason everyone is questioning palpa, since you quoted 661, is because of their power & influence to have prevented such things from happening in the first place. You question why the report wasn't released - you, I, and everyone on this forum knows palpa can pull strings to get that done in an instant - if the intention ever was there. Everyone with an iota of knowledge knows the pilot's were not at fault in that incident.

Barring the other associations, which themselves have done little to contribute to aviation safety, PALPA's role is being questioned (and rightly so), because of observations like this:

- being a political party allied with a certain worker's party first, and an association of public servants second

- having the political clout, connections & voice to have radically transformed the aviation systems in the country (more so than saep or atc guild which are treated like untouchables) and still have kept their focus on club houses, housing societies, and privileges.

- strong-arming management to influence recruitment policies instead of demanding effective SMS/QMS in the airline

- stepping in to "Save" members who have clearly violated SOPs, and more than once endangered passenger lives

- stepping in to save members who have cost the airlines millions in diversion costs, dumped fuel, and damage to aircraft

- stepping in to save members who fail checks & miraculously pass on the next go (without any retraining mind you)

- not allowing an independent safety board to be established in pakistan

- not ONCE in the past decade having conducted a public awareness event, or any safety seminar/conference with fellow colleagues from pia/caa (happy to be corrected on this)

- not having ANY regular safety publication or seminars (happy to be corrected on this)

- no anonymous record of safety incidents (which used to be in PIA's inflight safety magazine - wonder who shut that down?)

- forcing management to make certain people known to do favors and instructors and check pilots. Do tell me, who stopped multiple failure practices in SIM and why? Should that person not be held accountable for what happened here?

- failing to FORCE their colleagues repeatedly violating SOPs to face the consequences.

- failing to force the management to warn/retrain/ground/suspend ANY pilot continuing unstable approaches below 1000'

- failing to force the management to suspend/investigate/fire ANY crew member violating SOPs or professional standards, from garbage cleaners hiding drugs in the aircraft to engineers violating SOPs to unprofessional ATCs to cabin crew hauling undeclared goods.

Specifically in the context of this investigation, has been explained above, and said by the palpa reps on TV. I don't think there is any more need of crying wolf when you don't have a solid alternate outside your own club with the fear of your trainings & licenses being questioned.

You may talk about the AAIB not being relevant to investigating this crash, they are being accompanied by BEA, Airbus, and the engine manufacturers. What is your issue with them, as opposed to palpa, who has a proven track record of saving pilots repeatedly violating SOPs? What has palpa done in the case of the Gilgit captain or 786 radio silence? Do tell. What about the "instructor" who forgot the landing gear pins on a walk around in JFK? Zero. 0+0 = 0. Isnt it true that your fellow members are discussing "Palpa is politically powerful, we will not let the truth get out in this case" and "everyone say he (capt.) was fasting so they don't look at other angles"? You have just lost respected colleagues and 98 innocent people who had no idea what was happening, and the reaction is we are powerful, start building a religious narrative, and we will not let the truth out because it implicates all of you?

If you don't trust the air commodores, stop playing politics and file a case at the proper legal forum. Too bad your own gang's neglect and selfishness led to the failure in establishment of an impartial investigation board in this country. You are more liable here than the current AAIB, you had 70 years to establish a system, and YOU failed. Stop piling on your shortcomings on others.

As for PPE's not being provided, that is absolutely horrifying - but let me ask what you did earlier, how is that relevant to THIS investigation specifically. We would love to call out management on it, but then again, your gang made it a political war first. Actions speak louder than words. If management was at fault for not providing PPEs to pilots, management should be held accountable for every bit of their grave oversight. By similar logic, the heads should also roll for repeatedly violating SOPs and unsafe practices - be it sweeper, tech, driver, cabin crew, clerk, admin person, safety officer, pilot, atc, or director. If the first delusional sky god who violated SOPs and went below 1000' unstable had been punished and made an example out of - we all know the outcome in this case would have been most likely very different.

I don't know what PIA's social media policy is, but as public servants living and breathing on taxpayer money, you are bound to follow the rules whether someone is watching or not - that is called integrity. Don't like it? I'm sure lots of airlines will hire you, Unlikethe CURRENT captains and instructors who are sent home with a "thank you, no need to reapply" email and cant even survive a 30 minute basic intro with an HR assistant.

Your lot is responsible for the lives of up to 400 people at a time, when a split second decision counts. The public and your fellow aviators outside Pakistan hold you in high esteem - please start acting like it.

[Abbas Ali]

Bodies of more crew members, including First Officer and two Flight Attendants, of ill-fated May 22 PIA flight PK8303 flown from Karachi to Lahore today.



Abbas

[fawad]

Sir, i agree with all that you said, but what you quoted, i have never actually said, seems to be what i quoted from someone else's post in my post

Oops...sorry if I messed up in the quotation.

Capt. Sajjad Gul remembered by his daughter.

Article in DAWN newspaper: https://www.dawn.com/news/1560300

Abbas

Oh dear!

This is a rather delicate subject. I don't think anyone is trying to say here that her father was incompetent, had bad intentions, or did not love his job. My sympathies to the family for their loss. However, the point I was trying to make is that our culture and attitude contribute to such, what I will refer to, innocent mistakes and accidents. I can understand the pain the family must be going through, but at the same time, we cannot ignore such issues and let them keep repeating again and again. To give a simple, innocent quote his daughter used as a sign of her father's affection,

"All his friends and crew members who visited us to pay their condolences told us how he used to treat everyone around him as a child and would call everyone beta, beti or bachay."

In air crash investigation parlance, that is poor CRM and attitude. How do you expect a young FO, whom you just called a beta or beti, to consider themselves as your equal and challenge your decision once you start messing up? We saw that earlier when the FO was referring to his senior captain as "Sir". It is this innocent attitude and culture that I also talked about in my post. Calling someone, a grown-up co-worker, "bachay" would be dismissing such a person as a novice, a kid, an experienced person. No doubt we have such issues in our cockpits.

I am sure he must be a good man, a good father and Allah will reward him for his good deeds. However, telling us his stories about helping poor people, his attitude at Roza-e-rasool, etc. will not help prevent future accidents. Admitting calling a co-pilot "beta" or "bachay" is bad and taking necessary steps, on the other hand, can significantly help.

Barring the other unions, please explain how is an association like PALPA a problem? And specifically in the context of this investigation? It’s not like one nomination from pilots is going to change the direction of the investigation. They’re pilots not some divine power. Its funny how the AAIB is full of Commodores, how in the hell are they relevant to the investigation of a commercial crash? This just happened because they need to save their selfish arses.

Because PALPA is responsible for safeguarding errors made by pilots and protecting them. They are not a divine power...if they were, they would have prevented accidents from happening. They are political and badmash power. It is not funny that AIB is full of Commodores, it is rather sad. Had other AIBs that was not full of commodores done anything, we wouldn't be where we are today. It's also sad that we do not have any certified air crash investigators...just make-shift ones. Its also sad that politicians have already jumped into this...what has Saeed Ghani to do with PALPA and objecting to AIB? Its also sad that politicians have already started politics of DNA testing (Sindh vs Punjab).

As I said before, we should hire a competent investigator with experience in NTSB, BEA, etc. for the short term. Let him lead this investigation and also review previous ones and tell us the shortcomings and recommendations. But no one from PALPA or local pilot, please. I am all for local competence but too much politics and interference here.

If pilots are so much to be blamed then why wasn’t the report of PK 661 made public? I am damn sure that had it been a pilot error then it would’ve been made public immediately.

It should but we also have a culture to keep things secret for no reason. Previous reports were also kept hidden until ordered by the courts. That is part of our "attitude" problem I mentioned earlier. Perhaps some lawyer can invoke the RTI act and get it. Having said that, I saw no report blaming pilots for that. It was clear cut PIA management and maintenance, along with (partially) CAA.

You're trying to make it sound as if they blamed the pilots, which was definitely not the case. Here you go:

https://tribune.com.pk/story/1886452/1- ... sh-report/
https://www.dawn.com/news/1456983