PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

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Hassan777
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Hassan777 »

awasi wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 4:36 pm Well looks like the engine were not at 100% either As per PIA Notification
On PIA A320 Fleet AP-BLA, BLD and BLU are required to have FLEX takeoff thrust as it is the desired requirement to enhance engine life on these aircrafts. To ensure this flex takeoff on these aircrafts, following procedure is to be used:

Dispatcher will derive Performance regulated takeoff gross weight and subtract 1500 kg from this weight. This derived weight will be the box A limit for the relevant flight. This will ensure that Flex takeoff will always be used on these aircrafts.

Crew are requested to use FLEX thrust on these aircrafts. Full thrust can be used incase it is required due to any outside conditions e.g. wind shear or significant weather. All other aircrafts in A320 fleet do not have the above mentioned restriction.
From what i know not only PIA but many Airlines use this procedure to increase engine life,especially in hot climates.


awasi
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by awasi »

Hassan777 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 5:07 pm
awasi wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 4:36 pm Well looks like the engine were not at 100% either As per PIA Notification
On PIA A320 Fleet AP-BLA, BLD and BLU are required to have FLEX takeoff thrust as it is the desired requirement to enhance engine life on these aircrafts. To ensure this flex takeoff on these aircrafts, following procedure is to be used:

Dispatcher will derive Performance regulated takeoff gross weight and subtract 1500 kg from this weight. This derived weight will be the box A limit for the relevant flight. This will ensure that Flex takeoff will always be used on these aircrafts.

Crew are requested to use FLEX thrust on these aircrafts. Full thrust can be used incase it is required due to any outside conditions e.g. wind shear or significant weather. All other aircrafts in A320 fleet do not have the above mentioned restriction.
From what i know not only PIA but many Airlines use this procedure to increase engine life,especially in hot climates.
Absolutely, but why only these 4 aircrafts and why not the entire fleet ? What makes these engines unique that this directive was issued ? If its to save on maintenance and fuel cost, then it should be rolled out for the entire PIA fleet.

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Abbas Ali
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

PIA Press Release

Karachi 28 May 2020: The voice Recorder of the unfortunate A320 aircraft of flight 8303 was found from the crash site. PIA spokesman said on Thursday evening.

The investigation team had ordered lifting and removal of heavy parts from the crash site.

A fresh search was initiated on Thursday Morning to locate the cockpit voice recorder.
PIA spokesman said that this would further help the investigation team in their inquiry.
He said that PIA teams put in extra efforts and worked vigorously to locate the voice recorder which was handed over to the Investigation Team.

PIA spokesman said that 52 bodies of the deceased have been identified out of which 47 have been handed over to the families.

PIA is making travel arrangements for the families and transportation of bodies of the deceased to their homes.
The process of Identification through DNA testing is continuing. PIA spokesman concluded.

Source: PIA Press Release
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oozeman64
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by oozeman64 »

Hassan777 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 5:07 pm
awasi wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 4:36 pm Well looks like the engine were not at 100% either As per PIA Notification
On PIA A320 Fleet AP-BLA, BLD and BLU are required to have FLEX takeoff thrust as it is the desired requirement to enhance engine life on these aircrafts. To ensure this flex takeoff on these aircrafts, following procedure is to be used:

Dispatcher will derive Performance regulated takeoff gross weight and subtract 1500 kg from this weight. This derived weight will be the box A limit for the relevant flight. This will ensure that Flex takeoff will always be used on these aircrafts.

Crew are requested to use FLEX thrust on these aircrafts. Full thrust can be used incase it is required due to any outside conditions e.g. wind shear or significant weather. All other aircrafts in A320 fleet do not have the above mentioned restriction.
From what i know not only PIA but many Airlines use this procedure to increase engine life,especially in hot climates.
Correct me if im wrong, but FLEX setting is used for takeoff only, not for go arounds, right? All go around procedures still dictate using TOGA.
// The air is far safer than the ground //

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umar744
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by umar744 »

congratulations Mubarak CVR & FDR found well done no problem.

Hassan777
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Hassan777 »

oozeman64 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 7:39 pm
Hassan777 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 5:07 pm
awasi wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 4:36 pm Well looks like the engine were not at 100% either As per PIA Notification
On PIA A320 Fleet AP-BLA, BLD and BLU are required to have FLEX takeoff thrust as it is the desired requirement to enhance engine life on these aircrafts. To ensure this flex takeoff on these aircrafts, following procedure is to be used:

Dispatcher will derive Performance regulated takeoff gross weight and subtract 1500 kg from this weight. This derived weight will be the box A limit for the relevant flight. This will ensure that Flex takeoff will always be used on these aircrafts.

Crew are requested to use FLEX thrust on these aircrafts. Full thrust can be used incase it is required due to any outside conditions e.g. wind shear or significant weather. All other aircrafts in A320 fleet do not have the above mentioned restriction.
From what i know not only PIA but many Airlines use this procedure to increase engine life,especially in hot climates.
Correct me if im wrong, but FLEX setting is used for takeoff only, not for go arounds, right? All go around procedures still dictate using TOGA.
Affirmative, sir

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Abbas Ali
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

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Aviation Minister Ghulam Sarwar Khan at a press conference in Islamabad today informed:

Four-member Aircraft Accident Investigation Board (AAIB) of Pakistan leading the investigation of PIA flight PK8303 crash. AAIB can invite other investigation teams to become part of the investigation.

Eleven-member team from abroad including representatives of aircraft manufacturer Airbus, engine manufacturer CFM taking part in the investigation. France's BEA also part of this team.

CVR and FDR of the aircraft to be sent to France for decoding.

Twelve to fifteen houses damaged by the crashed aircraft. Upper storeys of houses damaged by aircraft wings and engines. Fuselage section fell in a street.

Brief report of twelve major accidents in Pakistan's history including ten PIA accidents, one airblue and one Bhoja Air to be presented in the parliament.

Provisional report of PK8303 crash to be presented in the parliament by June 22.

Compensation/insurance money to be paid to heirs of PK8303 crash victims.

PK8303 crash investigation will be transparent without outside interference.

Wreckage of crashed PIA Airbus A320 (AP-BLD) is being moved to Shaheen Air hangar at Karachi Airport.

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Flyer1015
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Flyer1015 »

umar744 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 1:54 pm Airbus learn bad experience A320 crash accident many times and I hope Airbus install CCTV landing gear and nose wheels for safety and health in future but A340-500/600 and A380 and A350 and 773 have CCTV landing gear & nose wheel excellent but I wish all aircrafts.
The reason those airplanes have the cameras is to aid in maneuvering on the ground (taxi) due to their very large size. These aren't something you'd be using in flight.

Hassan777 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 2:02 pm

Don’t know about this but Airbus surely should change the engine gear box’s location to a less critical place.
Airbus didn't manufacture the engines. The A320 either has CFM56 engines or IAE V2500. This PIA aircraft had CFM engines, a Safran/GE conglomerate. The reality is if you hit and scrape the cowling, chances are even the blades of the engine can be damaged.

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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Flyer1015 »

awasi wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 4:36 pm Well looks like the engine were not at 100% either As per PIA Notification
On PIA A320 Fleet AP-BLA, BLD and BLU are required to have FLEX takeoff thrust as it is the desired requirement to enhance engine life on these aircrafts. To ensure this flex takeoff on these aircrafts, following procedure is to be used:

Dispatcher will derive Performance regulated takeoff gross weight and subtract 1500 kg from this weight. This derived weight will be the box A limit for the relevant flight. This will ensure that Flex takeoff will always be used on these aircrafts.

Crew are requested to use FLEX thrust on these aircrafts. Full thrust can be used incase it is required due to any outside conditions e.g. wind shear or significant weather. All other aircrafts in A320 fleet do not have the above mentioned restriction.

Some clarification because the author does not understand flex. When we takeoff, the A320 thrust levers go in either one of two positions: TOGA or Flex/MCT detent. The TOGA detent is full forward, max thrust takeoff. The Flex detent is known as a derated thrust. Dispatch has different ways to do that in terms of calculations. But from a pilot standpoint, we get a flex temperature value that we insert into the FMGS (computer). Jet engines produce reduced thrust as the ambient air temperature increases. By inserting a temperature higher than the current outside temperature, the engines assume the temperature that is inserted. Typical TOGA power N1 percentages are 88-95% N1 and with Flex temperatures varying between 35-70 degrees, and N1 engine power settings of 75-86% typically. The lower N1 % results in lower ITT values, lower EGT, so prolongs engine life. We flex takeoff as much as we can (most nearly all airlines do).

Flex does not mean an engine is "not at 100%." It is a calculated power setting that is safe for takeoff and does not require full power. It does not imply any malfunction.

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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Flyer1015 »

awasi wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 4:45 pm Secondly the ATC cannot be absolve of their negligence. In the US the ATC is very authoritative i.e. you deviate from their instructions they will come down hard on you. The ATC guides and sets not only the altitude in the air but also ground speed when they deem necessary.

We can blame the pilots that are dead all day long, but unfortunately that is not going to solve the long term problem that is everywhere in Pakistan, in the air and on the ground.
What ATC negligence do you see? From the little that has been released so far, ATC was caught surprised that they had gear and engine issues. Once PIA declared the emergency, ATC cleared them to land any runway 25L or R.

I don't find the US ATC to be very authoritative. The New Yorkers have their New York style of talking, but since I also talk fast it's not a problem. :wink: Here, the ATC's primary function is to separate and sequence airplanes, and issue ground/terrain alerts if an aircraft is too low. If you are too high, they'll probably make a remark about if you think you can make it down? They'll clear you for the approach if you say yes. It's your job to fly the plane - not ATC. As for coming down hard on you, usually the problems start when they lose separation (two airplanes come too close, based on their required separation parameters). Even if a pilot has screwed up, as long as it was a honest mistake, we have an ASAP system in which you can voluntarily file a report. Even a bad case, you'll usually get a talking - but no certificate action. The system works pretty well.

No one in the US ATC system "check gear down/confirm 3 greens." I don't know if this is required by Pakistani ATC.

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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Inam855 »

AA wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 4:15 am
Really good find.

What you have said cannot be ruled out, it is possible. My personal opinion is that it’s not likely, but I’ve been wrong many times before. I’ll try to explain why below. Sorry for the long post!

Based on these statements (just my opinion), considering realistic ‘speed vs altitude’ scenarios and if we compare them with the diagrams, I think you are more likely to hear ‘too low flaps’ or ‘too low gear’ than you are to hearing any of the alternatives.
Thank you for your detailed explanation. I learnt several new things, much appreciated.
Flyer1015 wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 12:13 pm
Based on that video by Juan, if in fact it is indeed true that the aircraft's first original approach was no slower than 200 kts at a very high rate of descent, then they would only have flaps 1 out. They would not have been slow enough to get the next notch (flaps 2). After going around, at acceleration altitude which is 1,000 above ground typically, you clean the wing up. That means bring the flaps to 0 which is no flaps/slats. Since this airplane made it to at least 1,800 ft for the second approach, it makes sense that the slats and flaps are fully retracted.

Time required for full flap retraction on an A320 is fairly quick. Less than 30 seconds.
Thank you @Flyer1015, much appreciated.
awasi wrote: Thu May 28, 2020 4:45 pm Secondly the ATC cannot be absolve of their negligence. In the US the ATC is very authoritative i.e. you deviate from their instructions they will come down hard on you. The ATC guides and sets not only the altitude in the air but also ground speed when they deem necessary.

We can blame the pilots that are dead all day long, but unfortunately that is not going to solve the long term problem that is everywhere in Pakistan, in the air and on the ground.
US ATC's have the full backing of the FAA and the airlines themselves. A violation, no matter how big or small, is dealt with an iron hand. They dont have people calling up their retired captain buddies and asking them for favors or threatening junior ATC's with abuse on live frequencies.

The whole reason this conversation, and every other logical, unbiased commentary (posts or videos included) is going in one particular direction is that even after all the failures, the last hole in the swiss cheese is the pilots and the very evident deviations from SOPs warrant inquiry - that is all anyone is saying.

Rest assured, all airports in Pakistan have CCTV coverage (including of the runways). The video has probably been viewed by the investigators already.

I second @Flyer1015's comments. Nowhere in the civilized world does any ATC require to ask for 3 greens/gear down and locked. A failure to do that by ATC doesnt absolve the Pilot-in-Command of their responsibility. Not yesterday, not today, and not tomorrow - never.

Today I saw interviews of former MD ijaz haroon, PALPA president cp irfan and a former PIA captain. All insisted that a civilian should be included in the investigation, preferably an A320 pilot as the airforce investigators were biased by the CEO. When the host asked them who they would recommend, they began humming and hawing and finally took the name of A320 chief pilot out of the hat. Wonders, all of these geniuses, I tell you. First blame the investigators for being biased, then ask a fellow pilot and no doubt palpa member to be part of the investigation. Surprisingly, these people never talk about things like:

- Are any pilots penalized in PIA for continuing unstable approaches below 1000' (international standard). If no, why?

- Why are repeated hot and high incidents swept under the rug, with the pilots in command not even receiving a warning letter?

- Are multiple failures part of the cockpit crew sim training regime or not. If no, who eliminated them and why?

- Are there really 16 PIA pilots including captains whose licenses are currently being investigated for being fake/doubtful?

I for one am glad that IK has announced to make ALL investigation reports public. It's time for all PIA staff members to recognize themselves as public servants, and to own up and answer to their decades of negligence. If a bureaucrat can be jailed for a single wrong contract, then why not the ones who have purposefully handicapped safety systems to endanger human lives?

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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Fanjet786 »

The concept of confirmation by ATC "Checked Gear Down/3 Green" is done at USA Military Airports. Civilian airfields in the USA & Worldwide do not ask pilots to verbalize landing gear down & locked verification and/or confirmation.

UGA1980
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by UGA1980 »

I found this picture of the a320 (BLD). It was taken two days before the accident, it shows a residue buildup or something on under the right engine. It looks like what was observed on the engines on the day of the accident.

I'm not sure how to attach it here. Maybe some one else can post it.

ammad
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by ammad »

CVR is found: At least some of the conspiracy theories are buried about that it might be stolen or some other thing happen to it.
Fortune favours brave.

arshad.altaf
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by arshad.altaf »

@UGA1980:

1) Go to: https://imgbb.com/

2) Click on "start uploading"

3) It will take you to your folders. Select the picture from wherever it is saved.

4) Click on "upload"; you will get a message with a check in green and white that upload is complete. You will also notice a link. Copy the link and paste it in your post. The picture will most likely be visible to forum members or the link will be there and anyone can click on that link and see the picture of the engine you are referring to.

Arshad