PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

[A310]

If the theory of landing gears not taken/forgotten to be taken is believed then a blunder on part of the controller is also obvious. Ever since the Jumbo belly landing decades ago, it has been an SOP to say “check gears down and locked” along with the landing clearance. No read back is required from the pilots though. In this case the controller did not mention the wind or the gear check warning. He just went ahead and said “Cleared to land 25L”. In this case they weren’t asked to change over to 118.3 which is tower. It doesn’t give rise to any suspicion but does sound a bit unusual.

[AA]

I am a consultant psychiatrist in the UK. I also contribute to investigations on suicides where long chains of events are discussed. This include human factors, errors, omissions and very importantly learning from adverse outcomes to prevent future adverse outcomes.

My comments are related to communication between the flight deck and ATC. I am interested in potential barriers to communication as pointed out earlier.

A crash is a tragic and anxiety provoking event. Curious discussions following such events are natural. It is also natural to express opinion and a point of view. This might be different to what others feel. We also need to bear in mind that typing on a keyboard dehumanises us to a certain extent and high expressed emotions can be easily vented. I am sure all forum members are respectful people who don't mean to upset others. They are just trying to have a discussion.

A psychological defence mechanism sensed by me is denial. I can the wrong. I am sure you realise I was not in the cockpit of the I'll fated flight. Nobody was hence a degree of uncertainty is acceptable.

Back to denial, let's first start with the definition of psychological defences:-

'Defense mechanisms are unconscious psychological responses that protect people from threats and things that they don't want to think about or deal with'.

The important word is unconscious. They are not planned or deliberate. This means you can't blame the person.

Denial:-

Denial is probably one of the best-known defense mechanisms, used often to describe situations in which people seem unable to face reality or admit an obvious truth (i.e. "He's in denial."). Denial is an outright refusal to admit or recognize that something has occurred or is currently occurring.

Remember, it's unconscious.

Was the crew in denial after realising the engines had made surface contact? Can you imagine what a painful, distressing 'oh fuck' moment it must have been when they realised what happened? With that there minds might have been suddenly confronted with fears of death, injury, job loss, loss of reputation, self respect, income and everything else they have worked so hard towards.

It's possible they might have gone into a state of denial to not panic. Remember once again it's unconscious. This means nobody is blaming them. People are just trying to find answers.

Thank you for your enlightening breakdown. Defense and denial can absolutely play a factor in human errors onboard the flight deck of a plane. I will read over what you have written a few more times and try to learn from it for myself.

...is it possible that the landing gear was deployed, aircraft landed on gear, go around was initiated, aircraft got airborne, landing gear retracted immediately, aircraft lost altitude and engine pods contacted runway briefly with partial lift preventing severe obvious demage to fans?

As a general statement, I believe it is possible.

[Abbas Ali]

Crashed aircraft's engines to be taken for closer examination by investigators, according to news sources.

Abbas

[umar744]

1) ATC should install CCTV during take off and landing
2) ASF should install CCTV full runway
3) Yes or No have ATC staff see landing gear open or close to approach before touch runway
4) hopefully wait for blackbox full report about landing gear down for 1st landing?
5) if landing gear on working before touch then Capt Sajjad Gul or F/O Azam accidentally switch landing gear up to climb then engine hit runway too late.
6) they should not switch up landing gear until after end of runway.
7) it SAME like Emirates 777-300
it SAME like A320 Air France's first time crashed 1988
9) it SAME like Indian Airlines 2nd time crashed
10) worldwide every airport have CCTV for proof of take off and landing for security but I do not know Karachi airport have it or not
11) Big great "THANK YOU" to outside airport people proof of photo & CCTV & video from outside airport. God Allah award to public outside airport. BUT Karachi airport staff & ATC & ASF are poor service.
12) yes or no have ATC inform pilot about 'belling landing"
13) it ACCIDENTALLY happen for luck

[nopy99]

Interesting pictures. Along with marks from cowling scraping on the runway, are those Main Landing Gear tyre marks as well on the surface? Do the marks line up with A320 airframe dimensions? are these tyre marks from the incident aircraft or another aircraft? will a tyre compound analysis be necessary to prove this? does this mean MLG was extended but not locked or failed on touchdown?

Many more questions arising and these pictures show that armchair analysis is mere speculation until all the facts are known.

Once again, please remain respectful during discussion.

PIA Airbus A320 (aircraft registration AP-BLD) engines scrape marks on Karachi Airport Runway 25L.










Abbas

[Frostbite]

If the theory of landing gears not taken/forgotten to be taken is believed then a blunder on part of the controller is also obvious. Ever since the Jumbo belly landing decades ago, it has been an SOP to say “check gears down and locked” along with the landing clearance. No read back is required from the pilots though. In this case the controller did not mention the wind or the gear check warning. He just went ahead and said “Cleared to land 25L”. In this case they weren’t asked to change over to 118.3 which is tower. It doesn’t give rise to any suspicion but does sound a bit unusual.

It is quite unfair and uncalled for to shift some of the blame on ATC and even terming it as a 'blunder'. As per the records of radio transmission available, it was the ATC which initially expressed concern to the cockpit crew regarding their abnoromally high altitude in relation to the distance to the runway. This was shrugged off by cockpit crew and they decided to continue with the hot and high approach. Fine that after the unfortunate 1986, B747 belly landing incident it was made part of the ATC SOP to remind cockpit crews. But what happens when these pilots fly to international airports outside Pakistan where the foreign ATC is not under any obligation to remind inbound cockpit crew to deploy their landing gears when giving them landing clearance. It is fair to assume that these two deceased senior and experienced pilots would have flown international routes numerous times where this information wasn't spoon fed to them.

Ultimately it is the pilot in command that has responsibility for the safety of their aircraft and those on it. What lead to this tragic incident was poor decision making by cockpit crew for not committing to a planned go around in order to correct and stabilise their baulked approach. Infact lowering the landing gear early on in the first attempt would have helped to induce drag during the high energy approach. Shifting the blame on ATC for this incident isn't really fair on them.

[Inam855]

A very interesting read. I have a few questions for the expert

1) Can the alarms in the cockpit switched off by pulling a breaker or something? That to be looks like the only possible scenario of ignoring a host of alarms that must be going around

4) It is extraordinary that the plane was able to perform a go around after presumably hitting both engines on ground. Is there any parallel like that in history?

1) Yes they can and I am personally supporting this exact theory. Conjecture, but plausible in my opinion.

Since someone else has answered 2 & 3 I'll just skip those.

4) Yes there is. Smartlynx A320 in Estonia.

Quoting the report: While the landing gear was in transit, the aircraft hit the ground with aircraft engines with the vertical acceleration of 2.85 g. The pitch attitude was 0.7° Nose Up. Two seconds after impact, the airspeed increased, the pitch attitude to 9.1° Nose Up and the aircraft started to gain altitude at 6000 ft/min.

Link:http://avherald.com/h?article=4b57c3dd/0000

If the theory of landing gears not taken/forgotten to be taken is believed then a blunder on part of the controller is also obvious. Ever since the Jumbo belly landing decades ago, it has been an SOP to say “check gears down and locked” along with the landing clearance. No read back is required from the pilots though. In this case the controller did not mention the wind or the gear check warning. He just went ahead and said “Cleared to land 25L”. In this case they weren’t asked to change over to 118.3 which is tower. It doesn’t give rise to any suspicion but does sound a bit unusual.

It's interesting to know that Pakistani ATC controllers are bound by SOP to say that. Would like to know the legal aspect of this since ultimately it is the PIC, not the ATC responsible for the safe conduct of a flight. You are right about the unusual part, but as someone else pointed out around 10 minutes of the liveatc recording is missing - perhaps this was done, perhaps not. Indeed an interesting point to further look into.

Interesting pictures. Along with marks from cowling scraping on the runway, are those Main Landing Gear tyre marks as well on the surface? Do the marks line up with A320 airframe dimensions? are these tyre marks from the incident aircraft or another aircraft? will a tyre compound analysis be necessary to prove this? does this mean MLG was extended but not locked or failed on touchdown?

Given that the runway has been in use again, and the fact that we have photographs from a limited angle, I don't think there is any way to conclusively tell. However, its mentioned above that security cams show a belly landing & the PIA spokesperson himself has said "the first landing was without partial or full gear deployment".

It is quite unfair and uncalled for to shift some of the blame on ATC and even terming it as a 'blunder'. As per the records of radio transmission available, it was the ATC which initially expressed concern to the cockpit crew regarding their abnoromally high altitude in relation to the distance to the runway. This was shrugged off by cockpit crew and they decided to continue with the hot and high approach. Fine that after the unfortunate 1986, B747 belly landing incident it was made part of the ATC SOP to remind cockpit crews. But what happens when these pilots fly to international airports outside Pakistan where the foreign ATC is not under any obligation to remind inbound cockpit crew to deploy their landing gears when giving them landing clearance. It is fair to assume that these two deceased senior and experienced pilots would have flown international routes numerous times where this information wasn't spoon fed to them.

Ultimately it is the pilot in command that has responsibility for the safety of their aircraft and those on it. What lead to this tragic incident was poor decision making by cockpit crew for not committing to a planned go around in order to correct and stabilise their baulked approach. Infact lowering the landing gear early on in the first attempt would have helped to induce drag during the high energy approach. Shifting the blame on ATC for this incident isn't really fair on them.

Couldnt agree more. The pilot in command has the final responsibility for the safety of their aircraft and those on it. Not being reminded of a checklist item by ATC (not saying that’s what’s happened here but it seems to be implied by others) is at best a poor excuse for poor decision making. Exactly four minutes from FL100 to "touchdown", 90 secs from FL80 to 2,000' (= 4,000 fpm) - this had no signs of a "Stable" approach even by PIA sop's.

When you have removed the probable, the improbable however unlikely can be true. It doesn't mean they were bad pilots but they likely got themselves into a situation that overloaded them. The lesson for us all, irrespective of the final cause, is look after yourself, accept you will be nowhere near your normal skill level during lockdowns and fly as cautiously as possible once released to fly again.

Blue skies to all. Eid Mubarak.

[Ansari99]

https://www.magazine.jetliners.co/?p=666
I found this extremely useful in understanding the scenario.

And Eid Mubarak

[Abbas Ali]

Airbus team expected to arrive in Karachi on May 25 aboard Airbus A330-800 (aircraft registration F-WTTO) from Toulouse Blagnac Airport to take part in the investigation of May 22, 2020, PIA Airbus A320 (aircraft registration AP-BLD) Lahore to Karachi flight PK8303 crash.

Airbus Industrie Airbus A330-841 cn 1888 F-WTTO by Clément Alloing, on Flickr

Later, the A330 will depart from Karachi for flight Paris Airport-Le Bourget.

Abbas

[faisal-777]

I think we pretty much know by now the chain of events that led to the crash. The only open question, which would be answered by FDR and CVR is why the pilots reported all good on first attempt to land.

Someone mentioned here ATC being at fault, one can hardly blame ATC here at all except for the fact that if the account of witness that sparks were seen on first touchdown, why did not the ATC alert the pilots about it?

[umar744]

I wish Capt Sajjid Gul should land 25R Right Runway but too late. BUT Public witness are excellent photo & video of PIA A320 better than ATC & ASF.

[rvlhassan]

Airbus team expected to arrive in Karachi on May 25 aboard Airbus A330-800 (aircraft registration F-WTTO) from Toulouse Blagnac Airport to take part in the investigation of May 22, 2020, PIA Airbus A320 (aircraft registration AP-BLD) Lahore to Karachi flight PK8303 crash.

Airbus Industrie Airbus A330-841 cn 1888 F-WTTO by Clément Alloing, on Flickr

Later, the A330 will depart from Karachi for flight Paris Airport-Le Bourget.

Abbas

Interesting sight.

[fawad]

Why some forum members are getting personal and judgmental about everything?

Stay calm, and wait for the investigation to complete. Yes, you have right to discuss the available information, evidence(s) etc but not to point your finger directly towards anyone not here to defend. Human errors are the part of aviation industry, even at Airbus, Boeing and NASA too.

Believe me, the people handling/investigating with this tragic accident are more professionals than the forum members.

I think the biggest question is right there...are they professionals and competent? Or just people with the right approach and background?

Being able to read or interpret data, know aviation jargons, or fly a plane is not sufficient. Do they have any experience doing this elsewhere? It begs the question to what Pakistani air crash investigators have done in the past to improve safety?

- What were the recommendations of AirBlue investigations?
- What are the recommendations of BhojaAir investigations?

Add PALPA, a mafia or union for their benefits and badmashi rather than an organization for something useful, to this mix. What was the result from the Chitral ATR plane that killed JJ? Did PIA maintenance improve? The Multan crash years earlier led to discontinuing Fokker and going with ATR but no procedures, rules, codes or safety checks in place so that such incidence do not happen again.

- Do we have whistleblower acts to help bring corner-cutting in maintenance to light?
- Is there any CRM training and is it yielding any desirable results other than a certificate to be printed and hung in the office as some sort of achievement?
- What have we done to check and reduce pilot incompetence and ego? Did the AirBlue captain not deviate from procedures because "he was experienced and knew better"?
- Can FO challenge a captain in reality (not according to rules on paper) and survive his career?
- What penalties do captain and FO suffer when the deviate procedures? Are they send to training (with some financial consequences), their ratings or license suspended or any other penalty involved?

In summary, what have these professionals and their managers done to change aviation and make it safer? So, yes the question is always there over their competence, honesty, or powers.

[fawad]

There are a few interesting observations. My question to pilots over here:

1. When they were too high and too close, it means they would need to lose altitude quickly. This essentially means pitching the nose down and/or gathering speed. Is it true that you cannot lower landing gear at certain speeds (too fast)? So, in essense, the question turns to: is it possible that the landing gear problem was one they created rather than maintenance issue?

2. How can a pilot come in for belly landing (or just main landing gears) without emergency services at the runway and informing passengers and crew to prepare for a possible evacuation?

The possible scenario is this: Pilots (for reasons to be determined) were too high, decided against a 180 degree to lose altitude, and started descending. This increased speed and landing gears did not deploy. They thought it will when the speed reduces but the level stays down and nothing happens (you need to up the lever and lower it again when speed reduces). At landing, the engine scrapes the runway, and the pilot realizes they made a boo-boo. TOGA but the damage was done. They gained altitude and ATC asked/cleared them for 3000ft but the pilot struggled to maintain altitude at 2000ft. At this point, engines lost thrust (at the time of MAYDAY call) and the plane was essentially a glider that was too low.

[mohammed younis]

Aslamalakum,
I am not as knowledgeable as some of the brothers on here are, But I have some very simple questions if someone can answer?

1. Is it possible for when a pilot is under immense stress in the cockpit, the sounds of warnings can be ignored? Or he simply cannot hear the warning sounds because of his mental condition during an emergency?

2. Do you think the tower should of declared an emergency before the go around or before the engines scraped the ground?

3. Why did the tower not close the runway after this incident? I understand there was a take off or landing not long after this incident on the same runway.

4. Should fasting be banned whilst flying an aircraft?

5. and finally, can the RAT be deployed manually by the pilot, or does it only deploy when both engines fail.

I would be grateful for any answers.

Kind Regards

Mohammed Younis