PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Discuss issues and news related to PIA, Pakistani airlines and Pakistan's civil & military aviation.


pk363
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by pk363 »

Inam855 wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 11:43 am
pk363 wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 10:13 am DA

Why their hasn’t been any statement from Airbus and the engines manufacturer do far? And how they can constitute an investigation board without including these two critical stakeholders?

The composition of the investigation board is already being questioned by PALPA and other sensibles, which is all PAF without any commercial aviation representation?

https://www.dawn.com/news/1559253/quest ... omposition
A representative from the manufacturer is always included in the final report & findings, just because it hasn't been announced yet due to any number of reasons, no need to make assumptions.

Reservations aside, I would also like to question PALPA's role and steps to strengthen the civil aviation accident investigation infrastructure and what time they have spent constructively contributing to the country's aviation industry. Have they produced a dozen, leave that a handful of accident investigators from their ranks? Do they encourage pilots to be trained for management roles/accident investigation roles? Name ONE single PUBLIC event that PALPA has organized to enhance safety in the past 2, 5, 10, years?

Lastly, a person without any so called commercial aviation experience has managed to turn around the airline (on paper at least). For the first time, cash flows are positive and things are looking up. Something must be working since many thriving on benefits from PIA are now shouting with anger and demanding the death of the air marshal on this very forum. We all know what a fine job the 30+ year commercial airline experienced captains did at the helm of things. If the government trusts these 4 officials' skills and knowledge to investigate, and they have sufficient credentials, then let them do their job.
Wow wasn’t expecting a response in this tone and such choice of words.

Anyways there is a statement in Airbus website about PK8303 crash and the excerpt below confirms theirs as well as engine manufacturer CFM involvement in the investigations.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/stateme ... risis.html

In line with ICAO annex 13, Airbus is providing full technical assistance to the Bureau d’Enquêtes et d’Analyses of France and to the Pakistani Authorities in charge of the investigation. Technical support is also being provided by Pakistan International Airlines and engine manufacturer CFM.


Shahab
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Shahab »

A very interesting read. I have a few questions for the expert

1) Can the alarms in the cockpit switched off by pulling a breaker or something? That to be looks like the only possible scenario of ignoring a host of alarms that must be going around

2) Do pilots wear a mask due to the corona pandemic? and what type of masks do they use, if anyone has any idea. Are they respirator type masks and a far fetched assumption but could the masks have caused a mild hypoxia?

3) After the go around did the controller asked for the reason for a go around? I remember an old pia video (747) performing a go around at Manchester airport and the controller kept asking the crew for the reason of go around until they had an answer

4) It is extraordinary that the plane was able to perform a go around after presumably hitting both engines on ground. Is there any parallel like that in history?

wajidiqbal84
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by wajidiqbal84 »

First of all I am not a pilot. I am a curious and interested individual.

What do I do?

I am a consultant psychiatrist in the UK. I also contribute to investigations on suicides where long chains of events are discussed. This include human factors, errors, omissions and very importantly learning from adverse outcomes to prevent future adverse outcomes.

My comments are related to communication between the flight deck and ATC. I am interested in potential barriers to communication as pointed out earlier.

A crash is a tragic and anxiety provoking event. Curious discussions following such events are natural. It is also natural to express opinion and a point of view. This might be different to what others feel. We also need to bear in mind that typing on a keyboard dehumanises us to a certain extent and high expressed emotions can be easily vented. I am sure all forum members are respectful people who don't mean to upset others. They are just trying to have a discussion.

A psychological defence mechanism sensed by me is denial. I can the wrong. I am sure you realise I was not in the cockpit of the I'll fated flight. Nobody was hence a degree of uncertainty is acceptable.

Back to denial, let's first start with the definition of psychological defences:-

'Defense mechanisms are unconscious psychological responses that protect people from threats and things that they don't want to think about or deal with'.

The important word is unconscious. They are not planned or deliberate. This means you can't blame the person.

Denial:-

Denial is probably one of the best-known defense mechanisms, used often to describe situations in which people seem unable to face reality or admit an obvious truth (i.e. "He's in denial."). Denial is an outright refusal to admit or recognize that something has occurred or is currently occurring.

Remember, it's unconscious.

Was the crew in denial after realising the engines had made surface contact? Can you imagine what a painful, distressing 'oh fuck' moment it must have been when they realised what happened? With that there minds might have been suddenly confronted with fears of death, injury, job loss, loss of reputation, self respect, income and everything else they have worked so hard towards.

It's possible they might have gone into a state of denial to not panic. Remember once again it's unconscious. This means nobody is blaming them. People are just trying to find answers.

At the risk of being called an armchair analyst; looking at the very useful information pointed out by the member AA, is it possible that the landing gear was deployed, aircraft landed on gear, go around was initiated, aircraft got airborne, landing gear retracted immediately, aircraft lost altitude and engine pods contacted runway briefly with partial lift preventing severe obvious demage to fans?


I am not a pilot. I can be totally wrong.

Flyer1015
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Flyer1015 »

Inam855 wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 11:59 am
Flyer1015 wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 11:51 am A lot of armchair quarterbacking in this thread the last several pages. Curious, how many of you are actual airline pilots?
That is what happens on internet forums, all members are free to discuss Their thoughts and possible scenarios with each other.

I didn't realize being a pilot was a requirement for doing that, but since it seems to be a requirement for everything other than landing an airplane and reading a checklist in Pakistan, then I will share I have been a proud pilot in the US & the Middle East for 12 years now. I also teach air accident investigation and human factors at a four-year college if that serves any purpose.
A proud general aviation pilot? I don't see an airline pilot making a statement in bold like that.

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Abbas Ali
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

According to news sources:

Crash investigators have viewed Karachi Airport security camera recordings of aircraft touching runway with retracted landing gear and then climbing.

Investigators also observed engine covers scrape marks on runway.

Crash site also visited by investigators.

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raptor22
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by raptor22 »

nopy99 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:23 pm Please be respectful of the crew and those that have perished and not let's be armchair investigators.

My comments based on the limited info publicly available:-

In the ATC audio, the gear unsafe alarm can be heard in the background.

If 25L was impacted by scraping of nacelles/cowlings then should a NOTAM have been issued closing the runway for inspection and repairs? Or should runway be closed until the investigators can collect the necessary evidence from it. There was another flight that landed 30 minutes later - which runway did it land 25L or 25R?

I always thought that extreme close proximity of housing colonies to threshold is a bad idea. Similar situation exists with Askari housing in Lahore.

I wonder if they had tried for 25R on 2nd attempt if things would have been different due to more open land and threshold location.
Not only Askaris but Ali garden, Ghroa Pull, Fasial colony and Rangers HQ are all in Vicinity of Airport. Askari X Sector F now almost parallel to tarmac.

daniyal 07
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by daniyal 07 »

raptor22 wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 2:21 pm
nopy99 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:23 pm Please be respectful of the crew and those that have perished and not let's be armchair investigators.

My comments based on the limited info publicly available:-

In the ATC audio, the gear unsafe alarm can be heard in the background.

If 25L was impacted by scraping of nacelles/cowlings then should a NOTAM have been issued closing the runway for inspection and repairs? Or should runway be closed until the investigators can collect the necessary evidence from it. There was another flight that landed 30 minutes later - which runway did it land 25L or 25R?

I always thought that extreme close proximity of housing colonies to threshold is a bad idea. Similar situation exists with Askari housing in Lahore.

I wonder if they had tried for 25R on 2nd attempt if things would have been different due to more open land and threshold location.
Not only Askaris but Ali garden, Ghroa Pull, Fasial colony and Rangers HQ are all in Vicinity of Airport. Askari X Sector F now almost parallel to tarmac.
This is nothing they have also start making houses in the space between runway fence and sector e and the aircraft are just meters away one can also see the ground handling equipment and tunnels connecting aircraft. The area im mentioning is just beside the airport hangers and cargo area. The problem is that there is no check and balance ..people who know nothing are being given authority and appointed as ceo just like the ceo of pia .

raptor22
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by raptor22 »

daniyal 07 wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 2:41 pm
raptor22 wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 2:21 pm
nopy99 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:23 pm Please be respectful of the crew and those that have perished and not let's be armchair investigators.

My comments based on the limited info publicly available:-

In the ATC audio, the gear unsafe alarm can be heard in the background.

If 25L was impacted by scraping of nacelles/cowlings then should a NOTAM have been issued closing the runway for inspection and repairs? Or should runway be closed until the investigators can collect the necessary evidence from it. There was another flight that landed 30 minutes later - which runway did it land 25L or 25R?

I always thought that extreme close proximity of housing colonies to threshold is a bad idea. Similar situation exists with Askari housing in Lahore.

I wonder if they had tried for 25R on 2nd attempt if things would have been different due to more open land and threshold location.
Not only Askaris but Ali garden, Ghroa Pull, Fasial colony and Rangers HQ are all in Vicinity of Airport. Askari X Sector F now almost parallel to tarmac.
This is nothing they have also start making houses in the space between runway fence and sector e and the aircraft are just meters away one can also see the ground handling equipment and tunnels connecting aircraft. The area im mentioning is just beside the airport hangers and cargo area. The problem is that there is no check and balance ..people who know nothing are being given authority and appointed as ceo just like the ceo of pia .
That area you have mentioned is Sector F
Image

nopy99
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by nopy99 »

A video about flight PK8303 posted by ITechno8 (also a member on HoP) on YouTube.

Thanks ITechno. I'm a subscriber and follow your videos. I hope you don't mind me posting your video here.

I 100% agree with your comments. All discussions need to be factual and taking emotion out of them. Its OK to be passionate, but not OK to be disrespectful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7WJELSvOHQ&t=169s


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Abbas Ali
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Abbas Ali »

PIA Airbus A320 (aircraft registration AP-BLD) engines scrape marks on Karachi Airport Runway 25L.

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PIA Engineering Ispahani wide-body aircraft maintenance hangar visible in the background.

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Adnan Anwar
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Adnan Anwar »

To those who are saying PALPA representative should be in the investigation board , well by the way Aircraft Accident Investigation Board (AAIB) members are former commercial pilots and have a lot experience and hours in commercial aviation .
Adnan Anwar

daniyal 07
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by daniyal 07 »

raptor22 wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 2:52 pm
daniyal 07 wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 2:41 pm
raptor22 wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 2:21 pm
nopy99 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:23 pm Please be respectful of the crew and those that have perished and not let's be armchair investigators.

My comments based on the limited info publicly available:-

In the ATC audio, the gear unsafe alarm can be heard in the background.

If 25L was impacted by scraping of nacelles/cowlings then should a NOTAM have been issued closing the runway for inspection and repairs? Or should runway be closed until the investigators can collect the necessary evidence from it. There was another flight that landed 30 minutes later - which runway did it land 25L or 25R?

I always thought that extreme close proximity of housing colonies to threshold is a bad idea. Similar situation exists with Askari housing in Lahore.

I wonder if they had tried for 25R on 2nd attempt if things would have been different due to more open land and threshold location.
Not only Askaris but Ali garden, Ghroa Pull, Fasial colony and Rangers HQ are all in Vicinity of Airport. Askari X Sector F now almost parallel to tarmac.
This is nothing they have also start making houses in the space between runway fence and sector e and the aircraft are just meters away one can also see the ground handling equipment and tunnels connecting aircraft. The area im mentioning is just beside the airport hangers and cargo area. The problem is that there is no check and balance ..people who know nothing are being given authority and appointed as ceo just like the ceo of pia .
That area you have mentioned is Sector F
Image
No not at all, the area im mentioning is just beside the main area where aircraft are parked .

pk363
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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by pk363 »

Adnan Anwar wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 3:34 pm To those who are saying PALPA representative should be in the investigation board , well by the way Aircraft Accident Investigation Board (AAIB) members are former commercial pilots and have a lot experience and hours in commercial aviation .
The Investigation team formed to probe into Flight 8303 crash is headed by Air Cdre Usman Ghani and includes a wing commander and a group captain. The fourth member of the team is Nasir Majeed, a Joint Director of ATC ops. Can you please advise which member of the team is a former commercial pilot and have a lot experience and hours in commercial aviation?

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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by AA »

Shahab wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 1:27 pm 1) Can the alarms in the cockpit switched off by pulling a breaker or something? That to be looks like the only possible scenario of ignoring a host of alarms that must be going around
The sound of the warning alarm can be cancelled by pressing a push-button which is pretty much directly in front of the Pilot. This silences the noise whose purpose is to grab your attention. The noise does that very effectively. While the noise will be cancelled an indication of the failure/fault remains displayed on a central screen. Any associated warning/caution lights may stay illuminated or continue to flash.
Shahab wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 1:27 pm 2) Do pilots wear a mask due to the corona pandemic? and what type of masks do they use, if anyone has any idea. Are they respirator type masks and a far fetched assumption but could the masks have caused a mild hypoxia?
Wearing masks would not cause mild hypoxia. You are probably aware, airlines presently require passengers to wear masks, maybe some Flight Attendants are required to wear them also, but I believe not the Pilots. This might be because it would be a hinderance to proper communications.
Shahab wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 1:27 pm 3) After the go around did the controller asked for the reason for a go around? I remember an old pia video (747) performing a go around at Manchester airport and the controller kept asking the crew for the reason of go around until they had an answer
Yes, it seems to be standard practice for the controller to ask the reason for a missed approach. Most controllers will recognise the high workload straight after initiation of a go-around so they wait until a more suitable moment when they think the Pilots workload will be lower to ask that question. Why do they ask? I’m not entirely sure but believe it’s for statistical analysis, to monitor any trends, ultimately to plug any holes and enhance safety.

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Re: PIA Lahore to Karachi Airbus A320 Flight Crashes

Post by Shahab »

AA wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 3:57 pm
Shahab wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 1:27 pm 1) Can the alarms in the cockpit switched off by pulling a breaker or something? That to be looks like the only possible scenario of ignoring a host of alarms that must be going around
The sound of the warning alarm can be cancelled by pressing a push-button which is pretty much directly in front of the Pilot. This silences the noise whose purpose is to grab your attention. The noise does that very effectively. While the noise will be cancelled an indication of the failure/fault remains displayed on a central screen. Any associated warning/caution lights may stay illuminated or continue to flash.
Shahab wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 1:27 pm 2) Do pilots wear a mask due to the corona pandemic? and what type of masks do they use, if anyone has any idea. Are they respirator type masks and a far fetched assumption but could the masks have caused a mild hypoxia?
Wearing masks would not cause mild hypoxia. You are probably aware, airlines presently require passengers to wear masks, maybe some Flight Attendants are required to wear them also, but I believe not the Pilots. This might be because it would be a hinderance to proper communications.
Shahab wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 1:27 pm 3) After the go around did the controller asked for the reason for a go around? I remember an old pia video (747) performing a go around at Manchester airport and the controller kept asking the crew for the reason of go around until they had an answer
Yes, it seems to be standard practice for the controller to ask the reason for a missed approach. Most controllers will recognise the high workload straight after initiation of a go-around so they wait until a more suitable moment when they think the Pilots workload will be lower to ask that question. Why do they ask? I’m not entirely sure but believe it’s for statistical analysis, to monitor any trends, ultimately to plug any holes and enhance safety.
Many thanks for the answers, I appreciate you taking time to answer them. IMO the main reason for asking for a reason for go around is to ascertain the situation in case you need to deploy any emergency resources on the ground or if the aircraft need any priority in dealing with any onboard emergency. Ofcourse I am not a pilot/atc so I may be completely wrong here.