PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Discuss issues and news related to PIA, Pakistani airlines and Pakistan's civil & military aviation.


TAILWIND
Registered Member
Posts: 1857
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:52 am

Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by TAILWIND »

A310 wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:12 pm
[SM post_id=192872 time=1563693084 user_id=278]
Your revised math sounds completely flawed as well. No sane pilot would make an approach at even 150 on an ATR and that too at one of the most difficult approaches in Pakistan. But again your expertise is based on a poor quality video made by a passenger. That shows you’re an integral part of the SIB. On another note, I’d love to tell you that an ATR requires only 2800 ft out of the total 5000 ft of the runway at Gilgit. While touching down at the threshold sounds safe, even if the pilots touch down after passing 2000ft the landing would be a safe one. But please continue with your criticism of one of the best commanders on PIA ATRs.
We should not be accusing or defending people here...... but still the acft over ran the runway and got substantially damaged, as per ppl in ATC, it was high, landed long, so something went wrong during approach and landing...... isn't it ?


A310
Registered Member
Posts: 309
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:03 am

Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by A310 »

TAILWIND wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:19 am
A310 wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:12 pm
[SM post_id=192872 time=1563693084 user_id=278]
Your revised math sounds completely flawed as well. No sane pilot would make an approach at even 150 on an ATR and that too at one of the most difficult approaches in Pakistan. But again your expertise is based on a poor quality video made by a passenger. That shows you’re an integral part of the SIB. On another note, I’d love to tell you that an ATR requires only 2800 ft out of the total 5000 ft of the runway at Gilgit. While touching down at the threshold sounds safe, even if the pilots touch down after passing 2000ft the landing would be a safe one. But please continue with your criticism of one of the best commanders on PIA ATRs.
We should not be accusing or defending people here...... but still the acft over ran the runway and got substantially damaged, as per ppl in ATC, it was high, landed long, so something went wrong during approach and landing...... isn't it ?
You’re right. I’m not saying that the pilots should be let free. They’re already grounded and an inquiry will be held. And if they’re found guilty then they should face consequences. But I am trying to refute the allegations made by a member of forum. Neither does he know nor do I know about what actually happened. You guys should know that it isn’t possible to perform a go around at Gilgit airport. I might agree with you that the aircraft landed way past the runway threshold but none of us can interpret the speed of the aircraft. It is wrong to make assumptions. Some members are so keen on blaming the Captain that no one has shed a light on the sooo efficient Engineering department PIA has. I’m not blaming them but there’s a possibility, no? Similarly anything could’ve gone wrong with the brakes but alas we just want to dismiss the pilots.

Its the pilots fault anyway! Way to go guys...

SM
Registered Member
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:49 am

Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by SM »

A310 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 11:32 am
TAILWIND wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:19 am
A310 wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:12 pm
[SM post_id=192872 time=1563693084 user_id=278]
Your revised math sounds completely flawed as well. No sane pilot would make an approach at even 150 on an ATR and that too at one of the most difficult approaches in Pakistan. But again your expertise is based on a poor quality video made by a passenger. That shows you’re an integral part of the SIB. On another note, I’d love to tell you that an ATR requires only 2800 ft out of the total 5000 ft of the runway at Gilgit. While touching down at the threshold sounds safe, even if the pilots touch down after passing 2000ft the landing would be a safe one. But please continue with your criticism of one of the best commanders on PIA ATRs.
We should not be accusing or defending people here...... but still the acft over ran the runway and got substantially damaged, as per ppl in ATC, it was high, landed long, so something went wrong during approach and landing...... isn't it ?
You’re right. I’m not saying that the pilots should be let free. They’re already grounded and an inquiry will be held. And if they’re found guilty then they should face consequences. But I am trying to refute the allegations made by a member of forum. Neither does he know nor do I know about what actually happened. You guys should know that it isn’t possible to perform a go around at Gilgit airport. I might agree with you that the aircraft landed way past the runway threshold but none of us can interpret the speed of the aircraft. It is wrong to make assumptions. Some members are so keen on blaming the Captain that no one has shed a light on the sooo efficient Engineering department PIA has. I’m not blaming them but there’s a possibility, no? Similarly anything could’ve gone wrong with the brakes but alas we just want to dismiss the pilots.

Its the pilots fault anyway! Way to go guys...
I agree with most of your thoughts; however, just as a little correction: there is a go-around procedure at Gilgit that PIA pilots have within their publications. Also, unlike Chitral, Gilgit's runway can also be approached from both ends.
SM

TAILWIND
Registered Member
Posts: 1857
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:52 am

Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by TAILWIND »

Can we have the official approach procedure for OPGT Rwy25?

SM
Registered Member
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:49 am

Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by SM »

TAILWIND wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:45 pm
Can we have the official approach procedure for OPGT Rwy25?
There are no Jeppesen charts for OPGT but PIA has its own company charts for most northern area airports including Gilgit. I will try to see if I can get my hands on them.
SM

inducedrag
Registered Member
Posts: 760
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 11:31 am
Location: n24e57

Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by inducedrag »

SM wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:37 pm
TAILWIND wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:45 pm
Can we have the official approach procedure for OPGT Rwy25?
There are no Jeppesen charts for OPGT but PIA has its own company charts for most northern area airports including Gilgit. I will try to see if I can get my hands on them.
Satellite-based navigation and Instru­ment Landing System (ILS) are available to develop Skardu, Gilgit and Chitral airports for all-weather, day-and-night operations. This can be done at a fraction of the cost incurred on the installation of the conventional ILS at the Lahore airport.

A recent development in satellite-based technology has made it possible for automatic systems on aircraft to navigate through the most difficult terrain, such as valleys, and approach to land through clouds and at night. One such example is Queenstown Airport in New Zealand. The same systems can be installed at Skardu, Gilgit and Chitral.

Required Navigation Performance (RNP) approaches with RNP values currently down to 0.1 allow aircraft to follow precise three-dimensional curved flight paths through congested airspace or difficult terrain. The RNP value of 0.1 means aircraft computer systems will keep the plane along its 3D curved flight path.

The system ensures that the aircraft remains within defined containment area. Think of it like a virtual highway in the sky. The aircraft is controlled both laterally and vertically. Its position is constantly updated through the use of multiple satellites. The system is equally effective during day and night, and in clear and cloudy conditions.

Other requirements include customised crew selection and training package, employing the full capability of the existing RNP technology, and changes to on-board flight procedures to reduce pilot workload on final approach.

General and business aviation aircraft equipped with Enhanced Low Visibility Operations (ELVO), such as Synthetic Vision System (SVS), Combined Vision System (CVS) and Head Up Display (HUD), will also be able to operate to these airports in marginal weather. In the United States, under the NextGen programme, a lot of progress has been made on this count.

A recent development in satellite-based technology has made it possible for automatic systems on aircraft to navigate through the most difficult terrain, like valleys, even at night

The design of missed approach path has been a major challenge in the past because of high ground (mountain) in the takeoff or missed approach path. Therefore, it has been preventing the installation of conventional ILS at these airports. This should be no more a challenge considering the recently acquired ability of the aircraft to follow the accurate 3D curved path in cloudy conditions.

Just a few weeks ago, President Arif Alvi told a press conference that tourism to the northern areas of Pakistan surged by almost 100 times between 2015 and 2018. Only 20,000 to 25,000 tourists visited these valleys in 2015. This makes the latest number of tourists close to 2.5 million each year.

At present, PIA operates two daily flights each to Gilgit and Chitral by ATR aircraft, and one daily flight to Skardu by A-320. ATR-42 is a 40-seater aircraft whereas ATR-72 is a 70-seater aircraft. Even these flights get cancelled when the valleys are blocked because of clouds. The passengers/tourists who get stranded at departure or destination because of weather often create havoc. The road infrastructure is so long, inconvenient and dangerous that it deters them from seeking any other mode of conveyance.

The current government intends to encourage tourism in the northern areas. It should direct the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) to develop these three airports on the lines of Queenstown Airport in New Zealand. To do this, the CAA will have to seek international consultancy as local expertise for RNP-AR does not exist at present.

The development of airport and air navigation infrastructure is one of the primary objectives of the CAA as per the 1982 Civil Aviation Ordinance and National Aviation Policy. To do so, the CAA is already charging fees from airlines and passengers in line with provisions of the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO).

Airport and air navigation services are called natural monopolies. Therefore, unlike airlines, the CAA doesn’t compete with others. It is, therefore, in a position to increase charges or fees to plug in the gap between revenue and expenditure.

The CAA pays corporate taxes of over Rs15 billion every year, which is about 30 per cent of its operating profit. This means the CAA earns far more than it spends, resulting in such a heavy tax liability every year. Sufficient funds are, therefore, available for the development of a satellite-based, all-weather landing system in Gilgit, Skardu and Chitral. The installation of such a system costs only a fraction of the conventional ILS system. All three airports can be equipped with satellite-based ILS at the cost of one conventional ILS installed at the Lahore airport for Rs3bn. It will include the cost of Ground-Based Augmentation Systems (GBAS) and approach/runway lighting system etc at all three airports.

Gilgit and Chitral airports, with their limited runway length of about 5,000 feet each, are fit for turboprop aircraft operations only, such as ATR-42/72 etc. The Skardu airport, with its 12,000-foot runway length, is fit for operations of jet aircraft up to Airbus 320.

Once installed, our domestic airlines will be required to invest in crew training and upgrade of on-board equipment. Should domestic airlines not be interested in such a venture, these airports may be opened to foreign airlines by expanding existing air services agreements either bilaterally or unilaterally.

Uninterrupted and unfettered airline operations to the northern areas will not only enhance domestic tourism but also revolutionise the local economy.

The writer is an air navigation services expert

Published in Dawn, The Business and Finance Weekly, February 4th, 2019

iTechno8
Registered Member
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:18 pm

Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by iTechno8 »

TAILWIND wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:45 pm
Can we have the official approach procedure for OPGT Rwy25?
Resembling the official approach procedure published by PIA

https://www.theairlinepilots.com/foruma ... it-ops.pdf
Let's shoot across the sky..
https://youtube.com/iTechno8

iTechno8
Registered Member
Posts: 106
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:18 pm

Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by iTechno8 »

Pakistan Army troops arranging to move the aircraft. Maybe it can be repaired at Gilgit too?

Let's shoot across the sky..
https://youtube.com/iTechno8

SM
Registered Member
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:49 am

Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by SM »

iTechno8 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:35 pm
TAILWIND wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:45 pm
Can we have the official approach procedure for OPGT Rwy25?
Resembling the official approach procedure published by PIA

https://www.theairlinepilots.com/foruma ... it-ops.pdf
Thanks a lot for sharing, Shuja. This is very helpful.
SM

SM
Registered Member
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:49 am

Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by SM »

iTechno8 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 9:38 pm
Pakistan Army troops arranging to move the aircraft. Maybe it can be repaired at Gilgit too?

From these photos, the flap setting seems insufficient for landing at a relatively short strip. But again, at times, pilots do clean the flaps right after touch down to improve manual braking traction. Hopefully, the CVR and FDR will tell what the correct flap setting was at the time of touchdown.
SM

TAILWIND
Registered Member
Posts: 1857
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:52 am

Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by TAILWIND »

inducedrag wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 3:32 pm
SM wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:37 pm
TAILWIND wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 12:45 pm
Can we have the official approach procedure for OPGT Rwy25?
There are no Jeppesen charts for OPGT but PIA has its own company charts for most northern area airports including Gilgit. I will try to see if I can get my hands on them.
Satellite-based navigation and Instru­ment Landing System (ILS) are available to develop Skardu, Gilgit and Chitral airports for all-weather, day-and-night operations. This can be done at a fraction of the cost incurred on the installation of the conventional ILS at the Lahore airport.
.......
A recent development in satellite-based technology has made it possible for automatic systems on aircraft to navigate through the most difficult terrain, such as valleys, and approach to land through clouds and at night. One such example is Queenstown Airport in New Zealand. The same systems can be installed at Skardu, Gilgit and Chitral.
.................

The writer is an air navigation services expert

Published in Dawn, The Business and Finance Weekly, February 4th, 2019
I doubt author of this article has visited/seen gilgit, chitral and skardu airports to compare these with queensland airport.

TAILWIND
Registered Member
Posts: 1857
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:52 am

Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by TAILWIND »

Charliedelta11 wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 1:13 am
........ what exactly will happen to ascertain structural integrity and so on. Asking out of curiosity.
Every aircraft has a Structural Repair Manual (SRM), which gives in detail the permissible repair procedure for damages depending upon:
1 - the type of damage i.e crack, puncture, fracture, dis bonding, breakage etc
2 - Extent of damage i.e how big, deep, wide is teh damage.
and most importantly
3 Location of the damage.

Normal damages are assessed as per criteria is given in the SRM, and if within SRM limits, there would be a corresponding generic or specific repair procedure and it can be carried out by the operator. However if the damage is out of the SRM limits, it is mapped and sent to manufacturer who then carries out a detail analysis and if found technically repairable, sends a detailed repair scheme.

Hope this helps

User avatar
Abbas Ali
Site Admin
Posts: 37963
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:52 pm
Location: Pakistan

Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by Abbas Ali »

The damaged PIA ATR 42-500 (AP-BHP) has been moved to paved surface at Gilgit Airport and will be ferried to Islamabad apparently after temporary repairs at Gilgit.



Abbas
Dil Dil Pakistan... Jaan Jaan Pakistan

See you at:
Image

User avatar
Abbas Ali
Site Admin
Posts: 37963
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 11:52 pm
Location: Pakistan

Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by Abbas Ali »

Image
Initial investigation reveals late touch down with high speed as the cause of PIA ATR 42-500 (AP-BHP) accident at Gilgit Airport, said Aviation Minister Ghulam Sarwar Khan in programme 'Khara Such' hosted by Mubasher Lucman on 24 news channel.

Abbas
Dil Dil Pakistan... Jaan Jaan Pakistan

See you at:
Image

faisal-777
Registered Member
Posts: 619
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:02 pm

Re: PIA ATR Incident at Gilgit Airport

Post by faisal-777 »

On a clear day with good visibility, dry runway, an aircraft overshooting a runway can only be a serious piloting error. There is no 2nd opinion, unless you are friends with the pilots.
Once you have tasted flight, you will ever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward - Leonardo Da Vinci