PIA Boeing 707 Crash in Taif - Saudi Arabia

[Zulfiqar]

There were many sensational rumours as is usual in anything that happens in our countries. This missile thing sounds like the usual conspiracy theory (cannot be confirmed or denied!). Saudi government has donated many things to Pakistan in the past. Events may be coincidental as well.

What I also heard at that time was that due to the fire at the rear of the plane passengers panicked. As smoke started filling the rear and drifting to towards the front, passengers started moving to the front of the aircraft. This was despite crew asking them not to do this. The aircraft became front heavy in addition to other complications, could not be stabilised and crashed.

This may / may not be a plausible theory.

[H Khan]

Few items:

*There has never been any transfer of C-130 from KSAF to PAF.

*Two other commercial airliners, Lufthansa & Iran Air, witnessed an aircraft descending with flames coming out of its rear end of the fuselage. This was stated in the report by PIA Director Flight Safety's in accident report.

*The aircraft was banking right when it disintegrated in mid-air. FL estimated was 15-2000 feet. This also reported by DFS in the report.

* Saudi air defense was active that night also. Reportly testing the radar and missiles system related to MIM-23 Improved Hawk SAM system which were delivered few months ago.

[karachiwala]

Unless if the aircraft went down in one piece and completely vertical, aircraft debris will be spread over an area.

If fire broke out on the aircraft, then likely it caused some explosions before the plane hit the ground. The mid-air explosions could have ripped some parts of the plane while the aircraft descended at an angle.

It seems from the reports/posts that the aircraft did not go down vertically and thus, if pieces were breaking off the aircraft as it went down and due to the high speed of the aircraft, then the resulting crash is capable of spreading debris over a large area.

What I find suspicious (if it is true) is that no Pakistani officials were allowed on the scene (as mentioned by Connie in this thread) and the description of the crash (being spread over a wide area/fire ball) similar to that of the two passenger planes colliding over Germany a few years ago. So in theory, the saudi rocket theory might hold if there were no reported explosions before the plane hit the ground.

[ConnieMan]

I was talking to another uncle who is also retired from Saudia and have worked with airline for slightly longer then my father, he also remember that Saudis did indeed compensated Pakistan with C130 aircraft (It was kept very low on profile due to Saudis prestige issue). Then i asked him it's kind of strange why PAF would get compensated instead of PIA, so he replied saying Pakistan must have given offer for both types and they chose C130 over civil airliner...now if these people are talking about SAM activity and Saudi compensation with C130 to Pakistan it's certain to me that B707 was indeed blown out of Saudi sky as it was alot lower in maintaining it's altitude and went over Saudis sensitive area and without warning automatic defense rocket/s was/were fired on it.

Now my question is about mechanical problem it had, does anyone know exactly what it was, maybe due to this problem there could be and could not be a fire onboard and that is why it lost it's altitude so much and went on restricted area not knowingly and was blown out of the sky!.

Is there anyone on here who have access to PIA's archives department and he/she could look up for us what is in those transcripts or NTSB reports.

Actually about team of 4-5 high level PIA officials were allowed to visit crash site but none of the engineers or other Pakistani investigators were allowed there...

[H Khan]

PIA's director of flight safety along with two other people visited the crash site on no less than three different occasions. One of the person was not even active CAA official namely Air Cdre (r) Patrick. D. Callaghan who with vast experience co-authored the report on this accident.

Until recently, when PAF acquired six ex-RAAF C-130 thru FMS, PAF only acquired C-130 from USA and Iran. KSAF is out of question.

The PIA B-707 was flying at the prescribed flight path and there was no deviation whatsoever.

However, KSAF SAM system was active which it was no supposed to be.

[ConnieMan]

Until recently, when PAF acquired six ex-RAAF C-130 thru FMS, PAF only acquired C-130 from USA and Iran. KSAF is out of question.

The PIA B-707 was flying at the prescribed flight path and there was no deviation whatsoever.

However, KSAF SAM system was active which it was no supposed to be.

First H Khan it's RSAF (Royal Saudi Air Force!) not some KSAF...

Secondly since this whole accident has been swiftly covered up by the story of onboard fire and has been made official, that is exactly how this compensated C130's story would have been covered up also under secrecy due to Saudi prestige issues!.

3rd that B707 was going off course from the actual flight path and that is how it went over restricted airspace hence why rocket/missile was fired to it!, just think about it, if it had remained on it's path there was no way it would have gone over that area as it's known to all pilots and route planners to keep aircrafts away from that certain area or they would meet same fate also.

Those SAM are always active and are automatic defense weapons of that area, i bet you they are still active today also and if any aircraft/s other then RSAF's coded ones would go near it, they will be blown off too.

[ConnieMan]

PIA's director of flight safety along with two other people visited the crash site on no less than three different occasions. One of the person was not even active CAA official namely Air Cdre (r) Patrick. D. Callaghan who with vast experience co-authored the report on this accident.

What is in that report of Air Cdre (r) Patrick .D. Callaghan?, is there anyway you can get that report so we all can see it on here?..


Suggestion to Abbas:
Can you please make this thread sticky as it will take a while till we get to the bottom of this mystery..Since more and more members are participating in it, i am sure we will get to the bottom of this...

[PK732 Jeddah-Karachi]

Do we have any list of passengers persihed in that flight?? I asked this because i remember that a doctor from a clinic nearby to my home in karachi was also onboard this flight. His name was Dr. Aleem Saeed.

[raihans]

Interesting topic and a lot of information is coming out...whatsover, it is not official neither have any confirmation from official sources. Therefore, as you all are revealing the information and trying to get on bottom of the actual facts, i think you should all be a part of NTSB, Pakistan.

Please carry on...

[ahmedshaikhani]

Raihan you are right we need NTSB, Pakistan otherwise like always the poor pilots are blamed without any proper investigation unlike F-27 which crashed just after take off from Multan.

Now back to the topic.
I have been reading this thread from the beginning, my first question is that what was the fault which lead to diversion ?
Secondly, Why was the aircraft not allowed to land at Taif ? Was Taif airstrip wasn't capable of handling ?
Thirdly, Pilots are given the charts and all in which everything is mentioned so why did the pilot entered no fly-zone ?
Last, If there is any no fly-zone and the anti aircraft system is installed so there is always another aircraft which supervises all other aircraft that they don't enter no fly-zone. At that time was there any other aircraft which was supervising ? If yes so did they warn ?

[Abbas Ali]

Suggestion to Abbas:
Can you please make this thread sticky as it will take a while till we get to the bottom of this mystery..Since more and more members are participating in it, i am sure we will get to the bottom of this...

Sorry, I don't see any need for that. Topics come & go. As long as members have interest in this topic and have something to share, the topic automatically will remain alive till that time.

By the way, I checked year 2003 C-130 production list that I have. I did not find any Saudi C-130 transferred to Pakistan in that list (sorry it's not possible for me to post list details here).

Also, as far as I know, a country cannot transfer a US-supplied military hardware including aircraft to any other country without getting approval from USA. So, it means Saudis or any country cannot transfer their US-supplied military aircraft to another country without approval from USA. As already stated here, a number of Iranian C-130s were transferred to Pakistan and transfer was made under US approval through US Military Aid program. As far as I know Iranians received newer C-130s from US in place of older C-130s that were transferred to Pakistan.

Btw, does anyone know exact composition of team that investigated AP-AWZ crash? Representatives of airline invloved in the accident take part in such investigation. PIA's participation in crash investigation has been confirmed by forum member H Khan. Boeing Company also offers help and assistance to teams investigating Boeing aircraft accidents. So, probably Boeing Company officials also took part in AP-AWZ crash investigation to find out how & why fire erupted in rear section of ill-fated aircraft's cabin.

I think producers of Air Crash Investigation, the documentary series programme aired on channels like National Geographic, should consider producing an episode about AP-AWZ tragedy.

Abbas

[H Khan]

The three officials representating Pakistan were:

1- Capt. Shaukat H Khan; Director Flight Safety (The only DFS PIA ever had and later this position was unceremoniously removed because no one had a foresight that PIA should have this important department )

2- Air Cdre (r) Patrick. D. Callaghan former Inspector General DGCA

3- Capt. Ghafaar Ahmed (PIA), he was working as interim IG DGCA


Three of the finest individual were assigned to this case and later, as norm in our country of democrats, their report were presented to MoD and right now is collecting dust in some store room.

ConnieMan,

What I have written is from hearing directly from these three individuals. So your statements about the airliners deviating from its prescribed flight path, automatic air defense (there is nothing like this in real life except video games and movies), RSAF transferring C-130 to PIA are just conjectures

[ConnieMan]

ConnieMan,

What I have written is from hearing directly from these three individuals. So your statements about the airliners deviating from its prescribed flight path, automatic air defense (there is nothing like this in real life except video games and movies), RSAF transferring C-130 to PIA are just conjectures

I got all my information mostly from people who were then working with Saudia Arabian Airlines and some of Saudia's employees went to that crash site also plus from ex-Saudi Air Force personal, i see no reason for them to make up stories about it but i do see this whole accident being cover up upon request of Saudi Government as huge factor that played roll in it. Saudia was also involved in this investigation back then as PIA's aircrafts were handled by Saudia's employees then and to some extend still does now also.

As for C-130 being transferred to Pakistan after this accident i believe it did happen as more then 4 ex-Saudia employees said same thing one of them is Saudi national also over the years. I am going to ask few more individuals also about this.

Why would you hink these guys would just make stores up specially when they all were working at high posts in Saudia back then..

As for automatic SAMs deployed in Taif, i bet if you ask people who work in Saudia for decades or Saudi defense personal they will also tell you that those weapons did existed back then and still does. So no point of trying to brush this fact out, as it's saying to all those who have heard from individuals with authority of it being blown out of sky are open liers!, No way....

I do believe that PIA's B707 did went off course after suffering some mechanical problem and also had lot it's prescribed altitude, if it didn't then why would it ended up where it did is simple as that, plus why did NO other aircraft ever again flew over that particular course/flying path??

I can also see all those 3 PIA's individuals being asked by Saudi officials not to reveal the actual facts about it being blow off once again due to Saudi Government's prestige issue and you can ask people who live and work in Saudi Arabia how this is actually happens there. I have lived there for 17 years in past and i can tell some of the real stories backing Saudi cover ups regarding prestige issues statements.

[Abbas Ali]

According to Chronicle-Telegram November 26, 1979 news report, flight PK-740 originated in Kano, Nigeria. Was Kano-Jeddah sector operated by AP-AWZ or by Saudi Arabian Airlines aircraft through code share agreement with PIA?

Here's Chronicle-Telegram news report from November 26, 1979 - the day on which this accident happened. So this report provides very early information about the accident.

Pakistani Jetliner Crashes, 156 Feared Dead

JEDDAH, Saudi Arabia (UPI) – A Pakistan International Airlines Boeing 707 crashed on takeoff early today in rugged terrain northeast of Jeddah, and company officials feared all 156 passengers and crew members were killed. A PIA spokesman in Jeddah said he understood there were no survivors in the crash near Taif, Saudi Arabia's summer capital about 95 miles from the Red Sea port of Jeddah.

REPORTS FROM KARACHI and official PIA figures from Rawalpindi said the flight carried 156 people and all were killed. A PIA spokesman said the company dispatched a cargo plane to the accident scene to bring back the bodies.

The spokesman in Pakistan said the passengers included 110 Moslem pilgrims apparently returning from their visit to Mecca. In addition to the pilgrims, there were 35 other passengers, the captain and 10 crew members, he said.

Radio Pakistan said the first indication of an emergency came when the plane's pilot radioed "there’s smoke in the cabin and cockpit," and shortly after the captain called out "Mayday." Contact was then lost.

A PIA spokesman said there was smoke in the aircraft before the captain made his outcry.

THE PLANE. Flight PK-740 from Jeddah to Pakistan crashed about 95 miles northeast of Jeddah. The plane came down in rugged and unpopulated hill country between Jeddah and Taif, the spokesman said 'There was no indication of the cause of the crash, he said.

PIA had its last major plane crash in 1965, when an inaugural flight crashed near Cairo airport, killing 121 people.

The flight, with a crew of 11, originated in Kano, Nigeria, where it picked up 15 passengers before stopping in Jeddah where the pilgrims and others climbed aboard for the last stage of the flight.

A Saudi helicopter landed at the crash site where burning aircraft debris could be seen, the Association Press of Pakistan reported.

OFFICIALS AT the Saudi air force base at Taif said the wreckage was spotted after the plane crashed in darkness, but because of the hilly terrain it was not possible to land the rescue helicopter until daylight.

Two large air force helicopters from Jeddah with medical supplies and rescue equipment were dispatched by Saudi authorities, Radio Pakistan added

The Pakistani Civil Aviation Director General, M. Y. Wazirzada, told the APP "We are trying to find out what really happened. At present all we know is that the aircraft captain shouted "May Day" and then just disappeared."

Top officials of the Pakistan civil aviation department led by Wazirzada left immediately to Jeddah to investigate the crash.

Pakistani President Mohammad Zia-ul-Haq has expressed deep grief over the accident.

Source: www.newspaperarchive.com

[H Khan]

Well, you are not familiar with military technology so I will not comment on your conjecture of 'automatic' SAM system.

In our part of the world there is always the hearsay and conspiracy theories but not a single iota given to the science of history.

Again, no C-130 was ever transferred from RSAF to PAF, and Abbas has provided you with the proof. C-130 is big aircraft and one can't hide it forever.

The B-707 never deviated from its prescribed flight path. You are bringing another of your conjectures in suffering some mechanical problem There is no truth to it.

Only one was a PIA official and one DGCA employee and the third one was a retired PAF & DGCA employee. And to the best of my knowledge they had free access to the crash site and all the evidence pertaining to the accident. They wrote their report and handed to the Chairman of PIA, who happened to be Air Marshal (r) Nur Khan, and he passed the report to Pak MoD. And there the report is collecting dust till today.

You can always get in touch with Mr. Nur Khan (he lives in KHI Defense Society) and ask him the questions which are bothering you!