PIA Boeing 707 Crash in Taif - Saudi Arabia

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ConnieMan
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PIA Boeing 707 Crash in Taif - Saudi Arabia

Post by ConnieMan »

I am not sure if this topic has been covered on here in past or not but i would really like to know what really happened to that doomed flight in reality back then?. I have heard 2 versions of it.

1- That aircraft took off from Jeddah and minutes after taking off it suffered severe mechanical problems and capt asked Jeddah ATC to return back, by the time ATC got back to this B707 it had lost it altitude considerably and instead of making short turn back, it went into taking much wider turn back before returning to Jeddah Airport and that is when it somehow ended up in no fly zone of Taif and was shot down by automatic anti aircraft missiles/rockets due to Saudi royal's security reasons...

2- Aircraft was given permission to return back but it self-destructed itself due to mechanical problems that caused severe explosion onboard over Taif area!.

Now these are old stories i have heard over the years and more people i ask including my father they all believe it was blown out of sky by automatic anti-aircraft fire from the ground....

What is the real story behind it, does anyone have actual facts and history on this incident, i think it dates back to 1973 or 75 era....
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Post by Nasir »

This is what the Aviation Safety website mentions:

Flight PK740 departed Jeddah at 01:29 for a flight to Karachi. The aircraft was climbing to FL370 when, at 01:47, a stewardess reported a fire near the aft cabin passenger door. The crew started a descent from FL300 and were cleared to descend to 4000 feet. Following a mayday call at 02:03 nothing more was heard from the flight. The aircraft crashed in a level rocky area at an elevation of 3000 feet and burst into flames.

PROBABLE CAUSE: "An in-flight fire in the cabin area which, through its intensity and rapid extension, resulted in panic among the passengers and smoke in the cockpit, eventually incapacitating the flight crew. The cause of the cabin fire was not determined."
It was considered that the origin of the cabin fire could have been a leaking gasoline or kerosene stove, carried aboard by Haj pilgrim passengers. Pressure differential could have caused a poorly sealed gasket to leak fuel.
A second possibility is an electrical fire, but the rapid extension of the fire was considered difficult to explain because of the electrical circuit protection devices of the Boeing 707. Sabotage was considered as another possibility, but no evidence of use of an incendiary device was found.


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ConnieMan
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Post by ConnieMan »

So this sort of states what i mentioned as 2nd version of the story. I have asked on this with possible reason of on board fire but i have been told this story is all made as cover up since it was Saudi rocket that blew it out of the sky and Saudis never really paid any compensation either for the soles lost in that crash to Pakistan Government....

This is why i posted this thread to find out what in reality happened to that flight. I hope to find someone who may know someone onboard that doomed flight who may be able to share his knowledge about it.

I mean Nasir if most people would have said the same thats one thing, but most i asked over the years said it was blown off the sky by anti-aircraft rockets as it went over "No fly Zone" ie: Royal palaces airspace and that is why it happened.
Last edited by ConnieMan on Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Nasir »

ConnieMan wrote:but most i asked over the years said it was blown off the sky by anti-aircraft rockets as it went over "No fly Zone" ie: Royal palaces airspace and that is why it happened.
This is the first that I have heard of this hypothesis... But then again, I drank the coolaid too...
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PIA's B707 crash in Taif S.Arabia

Post by bernyjee »

The theory that the aircraft was shot by Saudis is probably correct.

Over the years, I've been told by some senior Pakistani Intelligence officers that PIA 707 mistakenly entered into a very sensitive Saudi no-fly zone. It prompted a swift response without warning (according to rules). Hence the tragedy which followed.

I have also been told that Saudis compensated for the aircraft to PIA. We have no proof if they really did the same or not. May be some one from PIA can confirm it.
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Re: PIA's B707 crash in Taif S.Arabia

Post by aslihan »

bernyjee wrote:The theory that the aircraft was shot by Saudis is probably correct.

Over the years, I've been told by some senior Pakistani Intelligence officers that PIA 707 mistakenly entered into a very sensitive Saudi no-fly zone. It prompted a swift response without warning (according to rules). Hence the tragedy which followed.

I have also been told that Saudis compensated for the aircraft to PIA. We have no proof if they really did the same or not. May be some one from PIA can confirm it.

I heard similar story from then serving Air Chief's son those days. There were Israeli intrusions. Saudis fired at it after mistaking the B707 as an Israeli plane. The wreckage was spread over 20-30km area. In case of fire, plane would crash in tact. None of the Pakistani investigators were allowed to touch anything. No photos were allowed to any one. And Pakistani families were compensated by Saudis, most probably, very cheaply.

Flaw in the official tale is that, there was a landing strip available at Taif, why it chose to return to Jeddah ?
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ConnieMan
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Re: PIA's B707 crash in Taif S.Arabia

Post by ConnieMan »

aslihan wrote:
bernyjee wrote:The theory that the aircraft was shot by Saudis is probably correct.

Over the years, I've been told by some senior Pakistani Intelligence officers that PIA 707 mistakenly entered into a very sensitive Saudi no-fly zone. It prompted a swift response without warning (according to rules). Hence the tragedy which followed.

I have also been told that Saudis compensated for the aircraft to PIA. We have no proof if they really did the same or not. May be some one from PIA can confirm it.

I heard similar story from then serving Air Chief's son those days. There were Israeli intrusions. Saudis fired at it after mistaking the B707 as an Israeli plane. The wreckage was spread over 20-30km area. In case of fire, plane would crash in tact. None of the Pakistani investigators were allowed to touch anything. No photos were allowed to any one. And Pakistani families were compensated by Saudis, most probably, very cheaply.

Flaw in the official tale is that, there was a landing strip available at Taif, why it chose to return to Jeddah ?
Now it seems that we are getting somewhere and truth is starting to come out on slow bases. Why it asked to return to Jeddah, we don't know and might never know but you have a very good point about "if fire was onboard it would have crashed intact in 1-2kms area not 20-30kms of scattered debris".

I will back you up on the on board fire issue with self experience. In 91-92 when Nation Air's DC-8 that cought fire on board crashed in Jeddah, i saw that plane just before it crashed 600 meters from runway!, my father and i were going to see our newly painted car in the work shops behind the airport's perimeter fence in Al-Sanaia area when i saw this aircraft coming in too low and making very loud noise, it was engulfed with fire from L1 door back while bodies and pieces from the aircraft were falling over the city!, it crashed infront of us!. This aircraft cought fire due to old tires and lack of grease in the wheel bearings on the takeoff roll, it flew out over the sea with fire on board, then came over the city and pilot kept it flying as long as he could, it ended up in fireball inside airport's perimeter fence as pilot couldn't pull on elevators much at that point due to the fire had burned the cables and cabin was engulfed with fire and smoke!.

So yes if it had fire on board it would still have flown most of the way back before crashing and not over on the hills in sensitive saudi "No fly zone" area!!...This fire story seems for sure to be a big cover up, i don't think families were compensated as it was blamed initially on pilot for flying over restricted area...
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ConnieMan
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Post by ConnieMan »

I had a conversation about this with my father, he said one of his Egyptian colleague aircraft engineer was allowed to go at the crash site as none of Pakistanis were allowed there. According to him he said that wreckage was scattered in vast areas but it was sort of in 3 sections, it's wing that was hit was on one corner, fuselage was in separate area away from the wing and alot of burned luggage was on another area!!, so this clearly means that aircraft was hit by ground fire as it was blown out of the sky!. Compensation was paid by Saudis to the families right away to keep low profile and not to talk about this episode due to fear in losing respect in front of the world.
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Post by udaas »

We will never know exactly what happened. You can add that to mysteries and miseries of Pakistan. My fellow HOP readers there is only one thing for sure, Pakistani blood is very cheap.
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Post by Abbas Ali »

The accident happened on November 26, 1979 and the aircraft was Boeing 707-340C (AP-AWZ). All 145 passengers and 11 crew members died in this accident.

The aircraft was operating post-Hajj flight PK-740 from Jeddah to Karachi as far as I know.

I also have heard theory/rumour claiming AP-AWZ was shot down in error by Saudi air defence system but, as already stated by other members, officialy this is not given as reason for this accident. In-flight fire caused this accident according to crash report available on the web.

In the absence of evidence like photos from crash site, it's not possible to say exacty what happened to AP-AWZ.

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Post by Amaad Lone »

Ok I am now going to put in my two bits, and as the matter of fact even started a thread about this crash a couple of years ago on HOP.

I remember that morning well, as my father woke me up to inform me that a PIA "Boeing" had crashed in Saudi Arabia.

As the day progressed the crash site was showed on TV, as names of the victims were being released.

I still remember the name of the captain was Khalid Wyne.

The wreckage of the 707 was spread over a large area.

Later on the same rumor came out that the Saudis shot the plane down by accident.

Apparantly the Saudis gave Pakistan Airforce some C-130s as compensation for the error.

Maybe someone can verify if any Saudi C-130s were transfered to PAF after the 707 crash.
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ConnieMan
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Post by ConnieMan »

Yes in absence of pictures from that crash site it will be very hard to say what really happened to that flight but, since there are other members, who know people who told them about rocket fired on it, if anybody from them can come on here and state what they remember about this accident, that is the only way we will know for sure as far as evidence is concerned!.

I will try to ask my father if he can some how get intouch with his Egyptian fellow worker/engineer who went to that site to come on here and let us all what he saw there. I would ask same from the family members who's loved ones lost there lives to please come on here and tell us what happened as they are the best source of evidence.

I strongly believe this flight was shot down by Saudi rocket fire!. As for whats posted on web is a cover up story since it did happened but not how Saudis want the world to know.....
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Post by ConnieMan »

Amaad Lone wrote:
As the day progressed the crash site was showed on TV, as names of the victims were being released.

I still remember the name of the captain was Khalid Wyne.

The wreckage of the 707 was spread over a large area.

Later on the same rumor came out that the Saudis shot the plane down by accident.

Apparantly the Saudis gave Pakistan Airforce some C-130s as compensation for the error.

Maybe someone can verify if any Saudi C-130s were transfered to PAF after the 707 crash.
WOW, Thanks for chipping in Amaad, i never knew that a footage was recorded and shown on local news about this crash!, this means there is a possibility that we could find that video and post on here. This leads me to believe that there were pictures taken at that crash site also for investigation reasons!.

I vividly do remember talk about Saudis giving C130s to Pakistan but don't remember why and when!, maybe this was the reason as Amaad said!..I am going to ask about this now.

Abbas is there a way we can track all the serial numbers of PAF's C-130s from 1979 up to 1982 then compare the transfer dates with this accident!, it could be that if Saudis did gave PAF those C130s but, they could have done this transfer after 6 months to 2 years past this accident!.
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Post by Abbas Ali »

Is it possible that somehow, probably due to fire in cabin or cargo hold, AP-AWZ's fuel tanks caught fire and exploded in the air that resulted in disintegration of the aircraft in the air and because of that wreckage was spread over a much wider area ?

Flight Data Recorder or Cockpit Voice Recorder data must have revealed some info to crash investigators about what happened during last moments of the flight.

I know about a number of Imperial Iran Air Force C-130s that were transferred to Pakistan Air Force but that was in 1960s & 70s. I'm not aware of any Saudi C-130s transferred to Pakistan. If Saudis were responsible for the crash of AP-AWZ then I believe instead of giving C-130s they would have compensated PIA by making payment equal to the market value of lost Boeing 707.

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Post by ConnieMan »

Abbas Ali wrote:Is it possible that somehow, probably due to fire in cabin or cargo hold, AP-AWZ's fuel tanks caught fire and exploded in the air that resulted in disintegration of the aircraft in the air and because of that wreckage was spread over a much wider area ?

Abbas
Then why would my father and all these other members lie about it being blown out of the sky by Saudi rocket!!, i don't see any reason for these people to make all this up!. I am sure that is what really did happened to that flight.

This onboard incabin fire story is not really adding up here atm, i am sure PIA archives would reveal truth also, i do think in there old records it would say as what few others and I are saying.
Flight Data Recorder or Cockpit Voice Recorder data must have revealed some info to crash investigators about what happened during last moments of the flight.
I am sure it must have this information in it also, but how can we find transcripts of those last minutes recording!, again PIA's archives would have those also..
I'm not aware of any Saudi C-130s transferred to Pakistan. If Saudis were responsible for the crash of AP-AWZ then I believe instead of giving C-130s they would have compensated PIA by making payment equal to the market value of lost Boeing 707.
Yes i partially agree with you also, why would they give PAF C130s and not compensate PIA and families of all the victims of this crash!, it would make more sense other way around but again i have heard about Saudis giving Pakistan some C130s many years ago...

I just did some research on the web about this accident, many crash related sites are showing it happened but only 2-3 site have exact word to word same statement what Nasir have posted earlier!, strange isn't it...