PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

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baberblues
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by baberblues »

Its PIA what do you expect from this, feel for those families who were needlessly impacted by this crash.


gooner14
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by gooner14 »

A310 wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:03 pm Please don’t forget to quote the part where they mentioned that PIA doesn’t really train its pilots to divert to military airfields specially in northern operations.
Let us drag the military in again, however PALPA should be given a clean chit as the professionalism by pia polots is one the best airlines in the world dream to attain Right?

imiakhtar
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by imiakhtar »

A310 wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:03 pm Please don’t forget to quote the part where they mentioned that PIA doesn’t really train its pilots to divert to military airfields specially in northern operations.
Does PIA teach its pilots how to tie their shoe laces? How about teaching them to eat with their right hand and wiping with the left?

Did US train Sully how to ditch his Airbus in the Hudson?

Did DHL teach Eric and co how to fly with zero hydraulics?

What sort of pilots are flying for PIA that they need to be told to follow SOP, to do contingency planning (escape routes, drift down strategies etc) when flying over high terrain?

An airstrip is an airstrip. Doesn't matter who own/operates it. You need to get down, you land.The operative words are professionalism and airmanship. Something completely lacking in Pakistani crews.
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Hassan777
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by Hassan777 »

Image


They could’ve maybe landed at tarbela dam airport its the only airfield closer than BBIAP,it has a 5,600 ft runway more than enough for an ATR 42, but considering the amount of aerodynamic degradation of the aircraft according to the report it would be a very difficult feat unless they decided to land here just after the Engine 1 shutdown and the first dive.
Last edited by Hassan777 on Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Flyer1015
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by Flyer1015 »

A310 wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:11 pm
Flyer1015 wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:33 pm
Abbas Ali wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:15 am
The aircraft crashed due to technical problem/poor maintenance by PIA.
They countered with right rudder and power on right engine, but ultimately made the critical mistake of trying to maintain altitude. That resulted in airspeed depletion which eventually led to a stall and spin. It looks like their only option would have been a continued descent and attempt at an off-airport landing. Sounds like they were in a very unfortunate position.

My friend easy to say this in the comfort of your home. Altitude is very very very critical in northern operations.


Of course. And not hitting a mountain there is just as critical.


You don’t bleed off airspeed and keep pulling back to maintain altitude when all you’re doing is increasing the angle of attack and putting yourself in further trouble.

A310
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by A310 »

imiakhtar wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 5:16 am
A310 wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:03 pm Please don’t forget to quote the part where they mentioned that PIA doesn’t really train its pilots to divert to military airfields specially in northern operations.
Does PIA teach its pilots how to tie their shoe laces? How about teaching them to eat with their right hand and wiping with the left?

Did US train Sully how to ditch his Airbus in the Hudson?

Did DHL teach Eric and co how to fly with zero hydraulics?

What sort of pilots are flying for PIA that they need to be told to follow SOP, to do contingency planning (escape routes, drift down strategies etc) when flying over high terrain?

An airstrip is an airstrip. Doesn't matter who own/operates it. You need to get down, you land.The operative words are professionalism and airmanship. Something completely lacking in Pakistani crews.
Wasn’t Sully a miracle? Do you expect that to happen everywhere in the world?

How the hell did you expect them to have a contingency plan for an unprecedented situation in the operational life of ATR?

During routine CJL/GIL trainings no information is given about nearby airfields(military or not) in case of a catastrophic failure. Feel free to confirm that with anyone. “You need to get down, you land” Sure but that is when you’re able to do so. Which pilot in the world do you think would immediately divert to an inoperative airfield just after a single failure? You understand the situation, try to rectify it and then make a decision. Not like they had an hour to flying around and party.

A310
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by A310 »

Flyer1015 wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 10:15 am
A310 wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:11 pm
Flyer1015 wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:33 pm
Abbas Ali wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:15 am
The aircraft crashed due to technical problem/poor maintenance by PIA.
They countered with right rudder and power on right engine, but ultimately made the critical mistake of trying to maintain altitude. That resulted in airspeed depletion which eventually led to a stall and spin. It looks like their only option would have been a continued descent and attempt at an off-airport landing. Sounds like they were in a very unfortunate position.

My friend easy to say this in the comfort of your home. Altitude is very very very critical in northern operations.


Of course. And not hitting a mountain there is just as critical.


You don’t bleed off airspeed and keep pulling back to maintain altitude when all you’re doing is increasing the angle of attack and putting yourself in further trouble.
So in your thinking this was all that went wrong?

A310
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by A310 »

gooner14 wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:34 pm
A310 wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 4:03 pm Please don’t forget to quote the part where they mentioned that PIA doesn’t really train its pilots to divert to military airfields specially in northern operations.
Let us drag the military in again, however PALPA should be given a clean chit as the professionalism by pia polots is one the best airlines in the world dream to attain Right?
Why does it only take a single use of the word ‘military’ to step on someone’s nerve. Stop being so defensive and first try to understand what I wrote. ‘Military airfields’. Not pointing any fingers at the military at least for now.

TAILWIND
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by TAILWIND »

Tried to read the report again to establish sequence of events, yet could not find out if No 1 eng IFSD happened before prop overspeed or otherwise.
Moreover, amongst many other assumptions and probable scenarios, board concludes that a blade in PT-1 turbine has cracked/dislodged in the previous sector (PEW-CJL) and went unnoticed by the crew. I doubt this statement, as a blade missing would trigger engine vibration to be missed by vibration monitoring system, if there is one installed in ATR42?
Also what about possibility of blade liberating as a 'consequence' of prop over speed to 122%?

NL
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by NL »

TAILWIND wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:55 pmboard concludes that a blade in PT-1 turbine has cracked/dislodged in the previous sector (PEW-CJL) and went unnoticed by the crew.
They probably see the lower than expected airspeed in the first part of the flight as an indication something was off with the engine already at that stage.

Flyer1015
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by Flyer1015 »

A310 wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:45 pm

So in your thinking this was all that went wrong?
No, not all. But a pretty big portion of it, yes. They lost control trying to maintain altitude and increasing AOA w/ depleting airspeed.

t-rehman
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by t-rehman »

Do we have any volunteer who can translate the report in layman's language?

The operation of turbo prop is not as simple as it seems. I guess its not throttle forward - more power, throttle backward - less power. The blade pitch angle is playing a very important role here

Would appreciate if somebody can assist in understanding the jargons involved (blade pitch / propeller speed etc). Thanks

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Abbas Ali
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by Abbas Ali »

Crashed PIA ATR 42 stalled and inverted after complex engine failure

November 18, 2020, 'Flight Global' article on investigation report on following link:

https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/cra ... 98.article

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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by Abbas Ali »

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Sindh High Court heard PIA ATR incidents and crash case today. Aviation Division and PIA officials appeared in the court with PIA ATR flight PK661 crash report and relevant documents.

Who is responsible for PK661 crash? the court asked Aviation Division and PIA officials. The ill-fated aircraft registration AP-BHO was flown with technical problem/poor maintenance, the court remarked.

The court also asked whether other ATR aircraft in PIA fleet are properly maintained and safe to fly.

PIA officials told the court that they have implemented measures following PK661 crash report to make airline's ATR flights safe. PK661 crashed due to technical problem. The aircraft experienced technical problem with its left engine, the court was told.

We have learned the lesson, PIA officials told the court.

The court has asked PIA to submit details of airline's ATR fleet maintenance record. Aviation Division/CAA has been asked to inform the court who is responsible for PK661 crash.

Next hearing of the case will take place on December 17.

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arshad.altaf
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Re: PIA ATR Flight PK-661 Crashes Near Havelian

Post by arshad.altaf »

All those personnel who had okayed the aircraft and had their signatures in the logs must be held responsible as well as their immediate superiors but we know that that will not happen. This will be just another slap on the wrist and move on.

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